EP 1: Period Marketing: the Inclusive and the Not-So-Inclusive
Show Notes
Welcome to the first episode of the Marketing Made Inclusive Podcast! In this episode, Joyann Boyce and her guests, Serena Gainda and Jade Pett, go down the rabbit hole of marketing period products and the success and weakness of previous campaigns. They also discuss what inclusive marketing means to them and pitch ideas for future podcast episodes.
Useful links:
https://www.arimacompany.com/blog/the-good-the-bad-and-the-bloody-in-period-product-marketing
https://www.salesforce.com/blog/inclusive-marketing-equality-trailhead/
You can find Joyann at: https://twitter.com/joyannboyce
TRANSCRIPT
Joyann Boyce 0:02
Welcome to the Marketing Made Inclusive podcast. I am your host, Joanne Boyce. On this podcast, we're going to discuss all things inclusive marketing, from persona creation campaigns, and even some of the mishaps we see in the media. Tune in and let me know your thoughts and how we can make inclusive marketing the industry standard.
Welcome to the Marketing Made Inclusive podcast. I am so excited today. It's our first episode, and we're just going to be talking as a team, about what on earth is inclusive marketing, and why we're all interested in it. I'm gonna go last because I feel like I'm gonna put my opinions all over the team. But I want you to meet everyone here, or hear everyone here I should say.
So, person, I've been working with for a while now is Serena, she's a copy consultant. Serena, why don’t you tell us a little about yourself.
Serena Gainda 0:57
Hello, hi. Yep. So I'm Serena. And I've been working as a copy consultant with Joyann and Arima for a while. And it's been really interesting because I think I came into it not knowing all that much initially about inclusive marketing. It's been, yeah, a really good learning process. And it's been a great journey so far.
Joyann Boyce 1:18
It has. We've had some interesting conversations, especially when it comes to is this word, a word we should use? Or not? And rabbit holes of debates. We also have our marketing assistant Jade. Jade, how you doing?
Jade Pett 1:35
I'm good.
Joyann Boyce 1:39
You're gonna make me chuckle. Yeah. So Jade is the newest member of the team in two aspects, new to marketing in general. And new to the Arima team. I want to know, before you started working with us and working with the team, what did you think inclusive maxing was, Jade?
Jade Pett 1:59
Well, I didn't even know what it was, I’d never even heard of the term before. If I had to guess what it would have been? I would have, I probably would have thought just like trying to be more inclusive of the types of people that aren't normally represented very much.
Joyann Boyce 2:16
And how do you feel that's changed since you've been working on, like campaigns and doing things and seeing the way that we work internally with clients?
Jade Pett 2:26
I think it's a little bit more nuanced than that. It is that, it is representation, but there's also like accessibility, behind the scenes, a lot goes into it. And the strategy. It's not all just representation. There's a lot more to it than that.
Joyann Boyce 2:42
There's so many layers, and this is gonna be an amazing rabbit hole we go down. And how about you, Serena? What did you think inclusive marketing was before we started working together? And also what do you think of it now?
Serena Gainda 2:53
So, I guess I initially thought you know, if you put a person of colour in an ad, that's, that's inclusive, but that's not it, of course, there is so much more to it. And I think the most interesting aspects to me, has been around in about ableist language, which I feel not a lot of people know about. So of course, you know, we're looking at bias, like gender bias, we're looking at all those different areas.
And, but the interesting thing, I think is for me, I have a massive, massive learning curve when it comes to disability and representation of disability and how often that's probably the thing that's most neglected in inclusive marketing. And also just realising as well that the benefits are not just, you know, they're not small, like it's a good thing to do. It's a nice, socially responsible thing to do. But actually, it's also good for, for marketing and for your brand. And they're actually you know, you can actually do a really good thing and make money from it. So it's a win-win situation when you actually choose to market inclusively.
Joyann Boyce 3:59
I absolutely love it. It's so good that like seeing how long we've worked together, that I can hear you quoting me? And I'm like, am I having an egotistic moment? But yes. But no like, that is it is that aspect of the layers, the ways you can make money and do good. It's not just one, one dimension. So in terms of what inclusive marketing means to me, so I've been doing inclusive marketing in some form or another for the past five years. And originally I went back to Salesforce's definition where it's representing wider society and how diverse it is. But I found that definition was a little loose, because whenever I used it or spoke to people, they're like, yes, we have put everyone in our campaign and I'm like, no, your campaign is still targeting a particular audience. And inclusive marketing is taking that marketing aspect, taking who you're targeting, and understanding that that target market is diverse, so you will exclude people but you, you're actively excluding them, you're not accidentally forgetting, oh, yeah, there are disabled women and women of colour.
I forgot to put them in the campaign. If you're actively excluding them, and you'll be like, okay, now we're making this product for X individual, and we're standing on it. To me, that's still inclusive marketing, because you're saying why and you're making sure you're putting in the effort to create content for those audiences. It's interesting, though, because I've had a big learning curve as well in terms of accessibility, and disabled disability language, and how much words are like ingrained into everything we say we do you see in ads. I am so hypersensitive now to the word crazy.
Jade Pett 5:47
Yeah.
Serena Gainda 5:48
Yeah, me too.
Joyann Boyce 5:50
It is used in so many campaigns, and it's used in so many ways to describe this thing. This is maybe cheesy, but crazy, crazy, or whatever terminology they want to use. And I'm just like, it's there. Not another word, like the English language is so rich. Is there not another word for that? But how is there any words or any things that you've become hypersensitive to hyper-aware of since working in inclusive marketing?
Jade Pett 6:18
I mean, I think crazy is a really good one. I think gender-exclusive terms as well. Like, I didn't realise how often things are narrowed down to a particular gender when it just doesn't need to be.
Joyann Boyce
6:33 How about you, Serena?
Serena Gainda 6:34 Yeah, I've had to kind of evaluate my regular vocabulary. I used to say the word lame a lot. And yeah, that's definitely something that I'm trying to reduce now. And I noticed it a lot. And it is a commonly used word, you know, among my friends, I think that's something that always pops up and just kind of being aware of when I say, hey guys, when anyone says, hey guys like that. It's such a little thing. But yeah, it's gendered language. And yeah, becoming more aware and sensitive of bias like that, that we use in everyday life.
Joyann Boyce 7:10
And yeah, the hey guys, one is really interesting, because I was looking at some research around influencers. And if I was to give campaign manager like, oh, this is an inclusive guideline for your influencers. I don't think they'll be able to, especially to make influencers, ban them from saying, hey guys. Like I've been trying to think, is there a way to embed that within campaigns, when that's the person's the way they speak, the way they speak to their audience, the way they engage the audience, and is a fascinating one. But even on the terminology and gender terminology, it’s interesting the shift that's been happening with period campaigns recently, and how it's gone.
I've seen so many differentiations, I have a client that we've been working with recently. And we've been trying to find a way to describe people who have periods, or if they bleed or if you bleed, or if you mentioned right, have you seen that shift? I feel like we've been talking about a little bit, but I'm interested to know, have you seen that shift at all?
Jade Pett 8:13
I didn't notice it until you pointed it out to me, in all honesty, I don't know if it's just because I was oblivious to it. The big one that I probably noticed is the no longer using feminine hygiene products and just calling it period products.
Joyann Boyce 8:29
Did you see there was this the, I think it was Asda or Morrison's here in the UK that had a little bit of press around changing the name of the aisles from feminine hygiene to like period products. How was it that one? Serena? Did you notice that as well?
Serena Gainda 8:46
Yeah, yeah, I did. Actually, around the time that we released one of our blog posts that it came out quite recently the, yeah, they changed it from feminine hygiene to period products so that they can include everyone. So you know, if you're male and you menstruate, you're included within that and you're just dealing with it doesn't make sense to assign a gender to something like that. I mean, at the end of the day, it's a product for a period. And that's what it's there for. So yeah, it made complete sense. I feel for them to make that move.
Joyann Boyce 9:18
It's, so much of it, where it's like it makes sense as soon as you hear it, but unless it's your lived experience, even though we all come from different marginalised backgrounds. You wouldn't think that intersectional aspects like I thought about when I speak to clients, okay, what is your representation of the trans community. But my automatic thought when I'm thinking of period products is women because I myself as a marketer had been indoctrinated to think solely. Women have periods, but obviously, trans men would still have that. And as a marketer, this is where it gets a little, do it for the kid but do it for the money. If 20% of your audience is trans men and still have periods you, kind of want to sell to them. It’s, it's a way to tap into a market. It's interesting an one, but yeah, I never, it never crossed my mind until it did. And then it made sense.
Jade Pett 10:06
Yeah. Until It's been pointed out to you.
Joyann Boyce 10:08
So much of that happens. Do you think, so if we were to make as a team now say we're going to make a campaign for periods product, let's say period cups or sanitary pads, this is such, a such a niche episode, but I love it.
From what you've seen from like our research and stuff, what elements would you pull from some good campaigns that you've seen out there.
Serena Gainda 10:34
So I really love Bodyforms women stories campaign. And I compare that a lot too. So I always sort of cringe a little bit when I hear have a happy period. And I know what always are trying to do when they say that they're trying to say, you know, this product is going to help help you and make you feel better, blah, blah, blah. But I've always sort of thought, Oh, God, that's not inclusive of everyone's experience, because for a lot of people having a period isn't necessarily a happy thing. It can be that they suffer from menstrual pain, it could be that they're having trouble conceiving, I think it's very complex. And I feel that body forms, womb stories paints that complex picture, and, you know, shows the wide breadth of experiences out there. For anyone that's menstruating. So, for me, I think I would definitely draw from that particular campaign. You see everything you see women of different ages, you see a young girl getting a period, you see a woman, you know, struggling with endometriosis. Yeah, I really felt that that was representative, more representative of experiences that people have.
Joyann Boyce 11:44 No, I really love that campaign as well, because it's so focused on the story and the experience rather than what they're trying to paint the experience to be because campaigns back in the day, I think we pulled some out of the archives were all about oh, no, your period hush hush. Or yes, you can still be a married woman and use tampons or, or period by being blue, so much things that they said they imagined. And that campaign simply went and asked people and then reflected what they experienced. It seems so simple when you say it like that, but it's not.
How about you Jade?
Jade Pett 12:23
I mean, it's interesting, because there was an old Bodyfrom ad actually, that I was just looking at the other day that is kind of doing that hush hush thing you were just talking about. There was like a male commenter, who may or may not be real. And he was like, oh, I saw these ads where the women are having such a great time. And I was so excited for my wife got her period so we can have this great time together. And then actually, it's really horrible. There is no blue blood at all and needed quite tongue-in-cheek response.
That was very subtle. They didn't kind of name anything, I don't think. But they've had a real shift within the last few years. And I love the womb stories one as well. There's another one they did, where they're like showing the red blood. That's really great, destigmatizing that and I think they've recently done what about like period insomnia. So it sounds like they're really trying to bring in like all different aspects of periods and showing real representation.
Joyann Boyce 13:19
Different perspectives. I. That blue blood one really baffles me because I think I grew up seeing blue blood in these campaigns. And I'm like, where was the, who came into the room? Or what regulatory body said that you couldn't show blood on TV, but you can show it in the movies? Like, yeah, where? And then why blue? Why not something blood red adjacent? You know, I feel like purple would have been a little bit. Just, yeah, it makes no sense. And I know that a lot of like, television stations and things wouldn't show the body form ad with the red blood. And I think most of their reach came through YouTube, which is really interesting. So yeah, that I think that created a cultural shift. I feel people are still talking about the fact that Bodyform use red blood.
Jade Pett 14:09
Yeah.
Joyann Boyce 14:09
I feel, yeah. I feel like that was the start of narrative because now I'm seeing companies come out and their terminology in their language is focused on okay, we want to start inclusive of everyone. And then we want to work backwards and be like, Okay, who are we actually serving? Who are the people who can actually use our product? And what do we call them? And they're defining it themselves, and not just saying women, they're menstruators and people who believe which maybe it might be a generational thing for me, but men, Streeters feels aged a little bit like if I was referred to as a man straighter, I would feel like someone's assuming I'm in my 40s or 50s. I don't know why.
Jade Pett 14:50
Well, menstruation itself is a weird term because it's so clinical, like no one calls it menstruation everyone calls it a period. It makes me think of, I can't remember there's another term like it though.
Oh, like don't call, in your campaigns, like female and male like it's to clinical, just call them men and women or nonbinary individuals. It doesn't need to be so scientific and clinical, you can use, like periods is a relatively colloquial term I suppose. But it's got a such a shared experience that you could say someone with a period…
Joyann Boyce 15:20
And people understand. I do wonder though, if that will ever change over time because even period as a word has, depending on how you use it in a sentence has two completely different meaning. Because you have period like we're talking about it now the thing that people who mentioned the experience, but then you have it if a marketer was going to use it in a slang aspect, or put a tweet and be like, period sis. Completely...
I saw I think I can't remember what company it was. But they ended that tweet with period sis. And I was just like, it didn't land. Well. It just felt it's kind of like when I think Spotify a couple years ago, tried to use slay. And it was just like, uhhh.
Jade Pett 16:04
Yeah, trying too hard.
Joyann Boyce 16:07 It's trying way too hard. But no I'm super excited. So in terms of this podcast, and what you would both love to talk about, this is our very first episode. We have so much research we've done in the company around so many different topics. But what comes to mind as something either want to talk about, or maybe a guest we want to have one and talk to them and get some inspectors like I'm thinking, I have a friend who has a period company, a period products company, it'd be great to talk to her about like, how she set up her marketing and, like came to the decisions on that. But yes, what did ideas what should we put out to the universe, Serena?
Serena?
Serena Gainda 16:51
Give me a sec. My brain’s just gonna like completely blank.
Joyann Boyce 16:55
I've put you on the spot.
Jade Pett 16:56
I don't know…
If you'll agree with me, Serena, but like the first thing that comes to mind is probably where like my head's I would like to research I'm doing right now. But it's exclusive language. It's the random little ones that you'd never know. Like, there's so many random words that you'd never know had this weird background that makes it not okay, because it's so ingrained in our language. But little did you know, that is actually a racist term because it was taken from a whole different country and they twisted the meaning of it.
Joyann Boyce 17:27
Actually, I think that'd be really interesting. Like just going down the path of some words, because even the word lame, I was aware, but I wasn't as aware until we started putting together a language dictionary of how far back that went.
Jade Pett 17:40
Yeah.
Joyann Boyce 17:41
That'd be fascinating. And probably if we can find that we can probably find a way of like, terms that are widely used by marketers, like hey, guys is widely used. We it comes up all the time. People put it out on company accounts all the time. So that’d be interested in the history of commonly used words. How about if we were to do something I, I would love to but this isn't me putting out wide into the universe. I would love to speak to Rihanna’s head of marketing or Lizzo’s head of marketing. I would love to speak to them to know what that discussion to set up those campaigns. And what is the brief that if they work with agencies that they give them? Because I think I heard Lizzo say once for her new product. Yitty, Yiddy, Yiddy, Yitty? No. I'm putting the T's in it. It's not Ts. Anywho.
I think she said once she intentionally starts at larger sizes as the first option and then goes the other way. And then I think it might be I imagined it or it might be true. Rihanna said she started looking at darker shades first. And like flip the narrative of things. So I would love to know how their head of marketing teams and how they put together campaigns like what is the brief what do they go down in their checklist to make sure they're including everyone who uses their product?
Serena Gainda 19:02
Yeah, that would be really interesting. And I think sometimes, like even just going a bit deeper than that. The needs I think of like people like people of colour, like there are differences, aren't they? So I think when you look at like dark skin tone shades for say, a particular brand, it might be that the undertones are completely wrong.
So yeah, it'd be really interesting to kind of see how they branch out not just in terms of the actual shade itself, but in terms of undertones and, and capturing you know, all the different makeup needs for people of colour.
Joyann Boyce 19:39
Because even, even imagine, and we're doing a lot of research on Fenty right now, which is why it's top of mind. But even thinking about that aspect. They go through all this undertones, but then they have to then find models and influences that fit those skin tone shades to then give them product or pay them or hire them to be in the campaign. So what came first? Influencers or the need inspire the representation? Or did the requirement of representation inspired a need for an ah, I don't know. That'd be cool.
Serena Gainda 20:12
Yeah, exactly. And they must work hard to find models as well. Because when you do, like so, for example, I know my shade, Fenty foundation. But when I have a look at the examples that they have, it ranges across ethnicities. So, you know, you don't just have the one image of say, you know, someone with my skin tone, and they're just from one background, one ethnicity, and that's the only example that you're getting. So I know with my particular skin tone, you know, it can vary like it can stretch across different ethnicities, and they show that so they don't just have the one model when you're looking for your foundation shade, they have a good view, and they look entirely different, but the only similarity that they have is the shade itself, but you know that they're from a range of backgrounds. I think that was really cool.
Joyann Boyce 21:01
That is so...
Jade Pett 21:02
That's a really good point.
Joyann Boyce 21:03 Yeah, that's so like, on point as well of like, just inclusive marketing in general, like, yes, you can have the one product, but it's the range of people that are using it.
Serena Gainda 21:14
Yeah, exactly.
Joyann Boyce 21:16
And on that note, that perfect landing point. We're gonna wrap up this episode. Join us to hear more about everything inclusive, maxing we're going to have regular episodes, I'm not going to commit to a certain amount and we're gonna have regular episodes you've been listening to myself, Joyanne Boyce, founder of Arima and Co and my amazing team, Jade and Serena and we've been discussing inclusive marketing, what it means to us and how period campaigns have changed over the years. Thank you for tuning in.