Ep 34: How will AI affect Graphic Design with Liz Mosley
Shownotes
In the episode, Joyann is joined by Graphic Design extraordinaire Liz Mosley!
Together they discuss the impact of AI on graphic design and inclusive marketing as well as a range of other topics including the usability of Canva, outdated design terminology, the importance of inclusive language and website accessibility!
You can watch the podcast here.
Sign up to our newsletter here.
You can find the transcript here.
You can find Liz here:
The Building Your Brand Podcast
Design your own branding course
Useful links:
Transcript
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:11:08
Joyann Boyce
Welcome and welcome back to the Marketing Made Inclusive podcast. I am your host, Joyann Boyce, and today I am joined by Liz Mosley. Is that correct?
00:00:11:11 - 00:00:12:08
Liz Mosley
Yeah.
00:00:12:10 - 00:00:15:09
Joyann Boyce
I always like to check, even when I'm confident. I'm like, no.
00:00:15:11 - 00:00:16:05
Liz Mosley
Yeah.
00:00:16:07 - 00:00:27:06
Joyann Boyce
Names means things. Anywho, I met Liz at a conference where we were both speaking. And Liz, you spoke about your no challenge.
00:00:27:08 - 00:00:27:20
Liz Mosley
Yeah.
00:00:28:00 - 00:00:36:11
Joyann Boyce
Your rejection challenge. I absolutely was inspired. I was like, yes, I want everyone to say no to me now.
00:00:36:13 - 00:00:47:21
Liz Mosley
I am. I love that, though, because you, like, told me exactly what you were going to go and, like, get rejected from. As soon as I got to the, back to our table. And I was like, yes, this is so good.
00:00:47:23 - 00:00:52:02
Joyann Boyce
But yeah. Okay, I'm going to ask everyone for everything.
00:00:52:04 - 00:00:53:00
Liz Mosley
Yeah.
00:00:53:02 - 00:00:58:18
Joyann Boyce
Because like, what happened with you, people just started saying yes and it kind of annoyed me.
00:00:58:20 - 00:01:02:01
Liz Mosley
You're like, oh, this is rude, why are you saying yes to me?
00:01:02:03 - 00:01:03:03
Joyann Boyce
It's like, no.
00:01:03:03 - 00:01:09:04
Liz Mosley
But then you just need to go bigger. If everyone's saying yes, go bigger.
00:01:09:06 - 00:01:14:15
Joyann Boyce
Mm hmm. While I think what bigger is, can you let our audience know a little bit about you and your background?
00:01:14:17 - 00:01:38:13
Liz Mosley
Yeah, sure. I am a graphic designer. That's what I trained as. In recent years, I have been specialising in branding for small businesses, mainly because I, while I was working in-house somewhere, I set up my own stationery business, basically, so that I could design stuff that I liked, that wasn't to anybody else's like brand or anything like that.
00:01:38:13 - 00:01:55:14
Liz Mosley
You know, I could just do be creative for the fun of it. And it was kind of like a hobby business on the side, but it really sort of like catapulted me into that small business world, you know, lots of like craft fairs and meeting lots of other makers. And I just realised that I really loved that small community, that group of people.
00:01:55:16 - 00:02:20:17
Liz Mosley
So eventually, after having two kids, I sort of realised I needed to effectively pick one of my businesses. Either I go down to sort of like self-employed services route or I really go all in on the products based business. So I dropped the product based business, went all in on the services. But because I love that sort of community so much and just felt really so passionate about supporting them, I, that was kind of like my target audience was small businesses.
00:02:20:17 - 00:02:41:18
Liz Mosley
So I've been doing that for the last sort of, seven-ish years now, basically since leaving my full time job, like I've been doing it mixed in with having kids. So it's sort of been, it's ebbed and flowed as to how much time I've had to work on it. But the last three years I've been really able to like focus on it, which has been amazing and it's been nice to see it grow.
00:02:41:20 - 00:03:07:02
Liz Mosley
But then I also do a bunch of other stuff as well because I definitely what people would call a like Multihyphenate or I like, you know, I like all different things. So I've got a podcast as well called Building Your Brand and run some courses, which I'm sure yeah, we’ll talk about at some point. But yeah, running courses for small businesses who aren't really in the point where they can outsource their branding.
00:03:07:02 - 00:03:16:03
Liz Mosley
So they want to like learn how to do it themselves. Yeah, that's the main, those are the sort of main things I'm working on.
00:03:16:03 - 00:03:17:14
Joyann Boyce
For Adobe, one of the biggest design teams in the world.
00:03:17:17 - 00:03:38:12
Liz Mosley
Yes. So yeah, so I do, I've got like an ongoing collaboration where I do a bunch of work for Adobe, so I have like hosted for them on Adobe Live. I'm an Adobe Express ambassador and yeah, a bunch of other jobs behind the scenes for them. Less visible but still really fun.
00:03:38:14 - 00:03:43:00
Joyann Boyce
It's like, how are you going to leave the name drops, you know, more American with our name dropping simetimes.
00:03:43:02 - 00:03:43:14
Liz Mosley
I know.
00:03:45:21 - 00:03:51:18
Liz Mosley
Yeah, I know we do. I need to put it on my website somewhere, I don't think it's even on there yet.
00:03:51:20 - 00:03:59:20
Joyann Boyce
And I, because I'm a LinkedIn fanatic, please make a company page for your self-employed self on LinkedIn.
00:03:59:22 - 00:04:09:24
Liz Mosley
Okay, I will, see, I'm not LinkedIn. I'm. I'm getting there. I'm slowly exploring LinkedIn. Okay, I will do that. I'll make a company page.
00:04:09:24 - 00:04:12:07
Joyann Boyce
LinkedIn is where teh professional fun happens.
00:04:12:09 - 00:04:18:02
Liz Mosley
Yeah, that is true. I made my first group the other day, which I was quite excited about.
00:04:18:04 - 00:04:24:17
Joyann Boyce
The groups are interesting. Some of them are really, really good and you get a lot of engagement and then some of them turn into spam quite quickly.
00:04:24:17 - 00:04:31:18
Liz Mosley
Yeah, it's going to be interesting to see. What happens is an experiment for sure.
00:04:31:20 - 00:04:44:14
Joyann Boyce
But you mentioned, so small business is such an interesting demographic to serve because when it comes to branding, when it comes to marketing, they are the ones who, like you said, need it but normally can't afford it.
00:04:44:18 - 00:04:45:11
Liz Mosley
Yeah.
00:04:45:13 - 00:05:06:19
Joyann Boyce
And I, you're one of the few designers that are self-employed I've seen have a course, teaching people how to do it themselves. And I even saw it mentioned that you teach them how to use Canva and normally when I mention it to designers. It's like I stab them in the heart. They're like, how dare you and I’m like, it's what people are most likely going to use.
00:05:06:21 - 00:05:42:24
Liz Mosley
I really struggle. Yeah, I struggle with this a lot because, and actually like, I had a lot of, when I started putting my course together, I had literal sleepless nights about it because I stress so much about what other designers in the design industry would think about it. And I had a coach at the time who, like I was really, I happened to just have coaching as I was launching this course and I really needed it because she sort of like gave me, she helped me keep going because I really gave up so many times and it's like a big, that, the branding one in particular is a big course.
00:05:42:24 - 00:06:18:15
Liz Mosley
It's like a 12 week course. It took a lot, like I had to scale back on client work to get it like completed. Like it was a lot of work to put it together. But my, I, my philosophy on it is just different. Like I understand why as a designer, you wouldn't use Canva. Well, I don't actually. I think, so as in I think you can still as a designer, I still use well, I use Adobe Express, which is like the Adobe's equivalent because it comes as part of my creative cloud, you know, I've already got it the previous version.
00:06:18:17 - 00:06:38:18
Liz Mosley
And I really, I’m a Adobe Express ambassador so obviously I would use that. But you know, it’s, it’s, it’s a sort of similar premise where it's like a much easier entry design tool that the idea is that everyone can use. And I sometimes I don't need all of the tools there, I just need to make a quick social media post.
00:06:38:20 - 00:06:55:01
Liz Mosley
I don't need like hundreds and hundreds of options of things to do. And so sometimes it's just like easier for me to quickly put something together. You know, I can do it on my phone because I've got the app, you know, that kind of thing. So I do use it, but I it's not like I would use.
00:06:55:02 – 00:06:55:03
Joyann Boyce
All the time.
00:06:55:03 - 00:07:28:04
Liz Mosley
Yeah, exactly. It's like a nice little added extra for me rather than my main design tool. But I, I make templates, social media templates for all of my branding clients because there's no point me making branding for them that they're then not able to use. And so I don't have a, I think those tools are great. Like, yeah, if you're a branding designer and that's what you're using to design logos on that is like, that is, you're going to come up against.
00:07:28:06 - 00:07:51:03
Liz Mosley
It's like problems at some point. Like there are limits to what it can do, but you can get by, you can do enough on there to create something that is good. And I just I just hate the snobbery of it. Like I hate the whole, oh, if you use this like there's so many posts on social media being like, if you use Canva, you're not a proper designer.
00:07:51:03 - 00:08:13:12
Liz Mosley
And I'm just like, It's a tool. It’s, tool is not what makes you a designer like your experience and your like knowledge of like the principles of design and what makes a design functional and what doesn't. That's what makes you a designer is not the actual tool. You know, if you're a good designer, you'll be able to design something that looks good in Canva or Adobe Express.
00:08:13:12 - 00:08:41:21
Liz Mosley
You know, you just won't have as many like options as to tools that you can use within it. And so, yeah, so I just, it winds me up, to be honest. And I and I do keep thinking about doing, sort of, counteractive content on my social media, but I haven't plucked out the guts because it's always, it's always I know it's going to like, yeah, I know it's going to be like dropping a little grenade in there and like, I'll probably run away.
00:08:41:22 - 00:08:48:05
Joyann Boyce
To be honest, they're probably all worried about AI at the moment, so they might not even know.
00:08:48:07 - 00:08:53:09
Liz Mosley
Yeah, true. Yeah, that's true. Maybe now's a good time. No one will be stressed about it.
00:08:53:11 - 00:09:19:15
Joyann Boyce
Be like, oh yeah, go ahead. Use Canva as long as you don’t use AI, I think that's going to be the shift. Yes. Use it, just don't use AI. Speaking of AI, I'm curious to know how is that impacting you or do you see it helping small businesses? Are they even aware they can use it for design stuff or these are the ones that are still like, what is, what is design?
00:09:19:15 - 00:09:21:14
Joyann Boyce
What is branding?
00:09:21:16 - 00:09:55:24
Liz Mosley
Yeah, I think most or most of the people who would like take my course probably aren’t at the point where they would be using AI in design, like InDesign tool. So like for example, I use, you know, like Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign, you know, they're all bringing in a lot of AI tools within the programs. And some of them, I think, are like absolutely incredible tools that have saved me so much time because they're taking away the jobs that are painfully boring that I had to do in the past.
00:09:56:01 - 00:10:22:07
Liz Mosley
So those ones excite me where it's like I can, it’s still my creative vision and I can get to my end result quicker because I'm not having to spend hours like cutting out a p, you know, the outline of a person so that I can change the background because I literally, like I've been designing for quite a long time, I used to spend hours doing that sort of thing and now, you know, I can do a press of a button and that is amazing.
00:10:22:09 - 00:10:50:13
Liz Mosley
You know, like I do, I make quite a lot of content. So like I use Premiere Pro as some of the AI updates in Premiere Pro are just like phenomenal, like I love them. But then there's other things where I think it's going to get, it's going to get a bit murky. So there's, you know, there's the sort of feature where you can upload something that you've designed and then you can use prompts to create things in a similar style.
00:10:50:15 - 00:11:16:04
Liz Mosley
And I understand the benefit of it for some people, but I also think it's going to be really abused because obviously I can just upload anyone's work and do it in that style. So I think that's where things yeah, that's what I get less excited about it because I'm like, actually this, the creative stuff is the bit I enjoy and so I have no interest in using a robot to do it for me because I enjoy doing it and so I want to do it.
00:11:16:04 - 00:11:51:11
Liz Mosley
So yeah, take away the jobs that I don't enjoy. And leave me the jobs I do enjoy. So that's kind of where I personally sit with AI at the moment. I think it will be useful for small businesses for sure. I think the, the sort of like text, you know, like the chat GBT kind of stuff I think is going to be very, it already is very useful for small businesses if they, I think the mistake that people are making or that I'm seeing people make is that they're forgetting to not use it 100%.
00:11:51:12 - 00:12:24:00
Liz Mosley
So I've got a friend who's built an AI app is absolutely amazing and is and it's for small businesses basically to create their like marketing funnel. And her advice is always, you know, let AI take you 70% of the way, but then you need to spend at least 30%, you know, like updating it and editing it. Yeah. And just making sure that it like sounds like you, but I'm seeing a lot of people just copying, pasting straight out of Chat GBT and it's just, it's just not sounding good.
00:12:24:02 - 00:12:41:07
Liz Mosley
And so I think that's where small businesses are going to have to be careful, you know, like don't let it be a tool that you just give over your content to 100%, like let it be a tool that saves you loads of time, but that you still add your flair of creativity to it. Yeah, I mean, you will.
00:12:41:07 - 00:12:46:13
Liz Mosley
You've got so much more experience than me, but that's kind of where I sit on this.
00:12:46:15 - 00:12:53:20
Joyann Boyce
I’m always curious. because. I think what you and what you're saying as well is that they feel they still need the fundamentals in order to really get the benefits from it because.
00:12:54:00 - 00:12:54:09
Liz Mosley
I think so. Yeah.
00:12:54:09 - 00:13:02:23
Joyann Boyce
Whatever they try and get from it is going to be the same as everyone else. And I think teaching people the fundamentals of design is never going to go away.
00:13:03:03 - 00:13:28:06
Liz Mosley
Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And like, you know, like AI is nowhere near the point of being able to, you know, like it can make a logo, but it can't make one that has like a story behind it or has meaning behind it or like really understands, you know, like the context, the competition, the like industry that it sits in, you know, like, I mean, yeah, it's, it's not really at that point.
00:13:28:08 - 00:13:58:20
Liz Mosley
I mean, I hope it doesn't get to that point because obviously, because I think, you know, I want like, I like create, I went to a conference recently at Adobe Max in L.A. and it was just really interesting because all of the features that they announced were AI based. But all of the talks that I went to and the keynotes were so much about creativity and the human experience and basically how creativity impacts and helps us as we navigate things as humans.
00:13:59:00 - 00:14:21:07
Liz Mosley
And it was really interesting having that sort a stark contrast, you know, like next to each other. And I think, yeah, I think it would be sad to lose that because I think creativity is such a huge part in like, it is a huge, it has a huge role in helping us process our emotions and process what we're all lived experiences and what we're going through.
00:14:21:09 - 00:14:37:13
Liz Mosley
And it's a way of expressing ourselves. You know, it has been that since like, you know, caveman days where they were like drawing on rocks, you know, like it's always been the case. And I just think we would really lose out if we lost that.
00:14:37:15 - 00:14:53:20
Joyann Boyce
Definitely agree. And I think something you mentioned about Logos really stuck with me because, I don't know if it was Pepsi. Somebody did a Logo redesign and they spent millions, as they do at agencies and design agencies. And it was like the shift of a line.
00:14:53:22 - 00:14:55:23
Liz Mosley
Oh, yeah.
00:14:56:00 - 00:15:11:03
Joyann Boyce
I was just like AI wouldn't do that. AI would redesign the whole thing. But when they did the whole kind of drawing and the depth for the concept of it, I was like, this makes it smooth that, yeah, I cracked up because I'm not a designer. I'm just like you. You paid 2 million.
00:15:11:05 - 00:15:32:05
Liz Mosley
I mean, yeah, the, the numbers go wild. I mean, it's a different playing field because obviously I work with small businesses, so those numbers are just like mind blowing to me. I'm probably for, like, those huge companies, you know, like it's a, it's like a drop in the ocean and it's like, yeah, that's just what you, what you pay.
00:15:32:11 - 00:15:53:08
Liz Mosley
But I think what I would say about that is, and I think this is one of the things that people struggle with, with branding in general, and it's why I don't criticise, I try really hard not to criticise designs online, even if I don't like them because you don't know what the journey that has taken them to that final outcome.
00:15:53:13 - 00:16:22:18
Liz Mosley
Because, I mean, I think you can, I think there's some instances where it is right to criticise. For example, if the design is like harmful, you know, causing harm or, you know, like there's something problematic about it. But if it's just like a taste thing and I'm like, oh, I wouldn't have done it. You know, I would have picked that colour or I wouldn't have done it that way, then I would tend not to because you don't know, like what the pushback from the client was or what the process or, you know, what their process was, what were the parameters that they were made to work within.
00:16:22:18 - 00:16:52:06
Liz Mosley
Like, you don't have all of that story and that context. You're just seeing the final thing. Whereas like there's been a slight change in the line, like you don't know what the original brief was. And I think, you know, part of it is possibly as designers, we're not that great. I don't think communicating the value and the impact that design has and how some small tweaks can actually like have a big impact and change things.
00:16:52:09 - 00:16:59:09
Liz Mosley
And so you just see that small tweak and you're just like, that's just such a waste of money and maybe it is, you know, like I think sometimes.
00:16:59:11 - 00:17:04:21
Joyann Boyce
It was. I can say as a designer, the shift of the line, it was. They could have just stayed.
00:17:04:23 - 00:17:05:10
Liz Mosley
Yeah.
00:17:05:10 - 00:17:17:02
Joyann Boyce
They could have just, sometimes I understand. And like when it's colour related, I'm like, okay, saturation. You have to think about how you're going to print it versus how it looks digital. I understand that, but the move of a line was just.
00:17:17:04 - 00:17:18:11
Liz Mosley
To much.
00:17:18:12 - 00:17:43:09
Joyann Boyce
But something you mentioned. What? So when there is controversy about it being defensive or problematic or basically just non-inclusive, how does that play out in the design world? Have you seen that much? Because obviously on my end I see the extreme cases. I see where illustrators are super lazy and they make like the front and the back of a Black person's hand.
00:17:43:09 - 00:17:44:06
Joyann Boyce
The same shade.
00:17:44:09 - 00:17:46:19
Liz Mosley
Yes.
00:17:46:21 - 00:17:48:01
Joyann Boyce
So yeah, how, how does it play out?
00:17:48:03 - 00:17:53:21
Liz Mosley
I think you see it less in branding just because it's like.
00:17:53:21 - 00:18:13:16
Liz Mosley
like I think illustrations a slightly different ballgame. I think I have seen people walk, I have seen companies like walk it back, you know, where they've done something. And actually the response is just like so negative that it’s, you know, it's better for them to go back to what they had.
00:18:13:18 - 00:18:41:13
Liz Mosley
I think the like, is it kind of like a running joke amongst designers, is the fear that you are going to design an icon or something that is going to have like a visual, like someone's going to recognise something visually and that you didn't intend. So, for example, a swastika, a penis, you know, that's something that you're not, you're not intending to create that, but you've like done this stylistic design and you didn't look at it from all angles.
00:18:41:13 - 00:19:08:11
Liz Mosley
And then actually if you tilt it, you know, how many degrees this way? Oh my goodness, that's a swastika. So like, I think that, that is one that you see quite a lot is where it wasn't at all intended for a design to have a motif in it. But then someone points out something not great. And, you know, sometimes it's not something offensive and it's just something funny and not ideal.
00:19:08:11 - 00:19:22:05
Liz Mosley
And they'll just they'll just sort of ride it out. But sometimes I think it is something that is going to like genuinely upset people and they change it, which I think they should. But yeah.
00:19:22:07 - 00:19:43:12
Joyann Boyce
They will. But it's interesting because then I guess it depends on what stage it gets noticed and how much it can change. Because recently I was in Orlando, in Florida I guess is in Florida, and they have the shape of the state on a lot of their highway signs and so forth, something we don't really have here, we don't have like the shape of Bristol.
00:19:44:19 - 00:19:46:15
Liz Mosley
Yeah. It'd be just been such a wait.
00:19:46:16 - 00:19:49:18
Joyann Boyce
It’d just be like a squat. It would be.
00:19:49:18 - 00:19:54:09
Liz Mosley
N one wouldn't know what it is. Not like we are all familiar with the shape of Bristol.
00:19:54:11 - 00:20:03:22
Joyann Boyce
But I googled it. I spent about four days there over the time that I got from out of shape and I once I saw something, I couldn't see it. The shape of Florida is the shape of a gun.
00:20:03:24 - 00:20:25:22
Liz Mosley
Oh, interesting. Yeah. And that is the thing. Like, I feel like I don't really want to go into the details of what people thought it was, but it was the same with the, the Olympic logo. People saw something quite rude in that. And once you saw it, you could never unsee it. People can go and like Goolge it.
00:20:25:24 - 00:20:32:07
Joyann Boyce
Because now, just like the only things that are coming to mind is because it's the Olympic logo is circles.
00:20:32:09 - 00:20:54:03
Liz Mosley
Oh, not that Olympic logo. It was like, what, it's like that, you know, they how they do, you know like a bespoke one with the year for each like each Olympics. I'll tell you people can, I think, I think it was the London, I think it's the 2012. I need to go and check but that was one of the where I'll, I'll, I'll tell you about t after. People can go and Google.
00:20:54:09 - 00:20:59:02
Liz Mosley
I don't want to be responsible for describing it on your podcast.
00:20:59:04 - 00:21:22:24
Joyann Boyce
There's so many layers. I think the worst I have ever seen. And I was I was at an event and, I was at an event and this person was describing the power of branding. At the end of the slide, they were saying how, you know, designers need to be mindful when they're using different fonts and had a bunch of different fonts that were meant to say something but said something else.
00:21:23:01 - 00:21:30:09
Joyann Boyce
And then it was a scripted font. I was the only Black person in the room. That was meant to say pizza, but they said the N-word.
00:21:30:11 - 00:21:31:18
Liz Mosley
No.
00:21:31:20 - 00:22:09:09
Joyann Boyce
And they put that up and people were chuckling. And I'm just like, huh, you thought that was ok, And it was one of those ones where I do wonder how, like, designers can show things like, this is such a, you have to see it because it's such a tangible thing to understand the faux pas, but how you do it, how you go about it and like and then I, it got me really curious to know, like, what is the conversation when you're teaching people about designing things to take things into mind?
00:22:09:09 - 00:22:16:11
Joyann Boyce
Like is that even a thing like when you were at London Design School?
00:22:16:13 - 00:22:17:07
Liz Mosley
LSE.
00:22:17:07 - 00:22:27:16
Joyann Boyce
LSE. Yeah. Was there any conversation around cultural considerations when designing things and creating things.
00:22:27:18 - 00:22:44:12
Liz Mosley
Not loads in the sense that, there was like very, so I was working in the design team that was very clear brand guidelines. So there was actually like a lot of limits on what you can do. You know, there was like limits on what colours I could use, what fonts I could use, you know, all that kind of thing.
00:22:44:17 - 00:23:26:22
Liz Mosley
There definitely was, there was consideration of that. And, you know, like a lot of people look at things before they go out. I'm sure, like mistakes will have been made and but yeah, I think it is well, I think it's interesting thinking about it in like a real life context and then thinking about it in an educational content and like because the sort of example that you saw, that was almost like in an educational setting, wasn’t it, you know, like they weren't saying, they were saying, look, this is what happens if you pick the wrong font and you'll see like a lot of examples online of so bad kerning.
00:23:26:22 - 00:23:48:09
Liz Mosley
So, you know, like the space between the letters, if you get that wrong, the word could end up saying something very different from what you intended it to. So, for example, like if you had a C and an L, oh no, not C and L, like if you had two letters too close together, they would effectively make a different letter.
00:23:48:11 - 00:24:09:13
Liz Mosley
I'm trying to think of like I'm trying to think of an actual real example now and I can't. But yeah, basically. Or you know, like if you put like a gap too big between two letters, it makes the word too different words that could be like rude. So, so that's often like shown as an example where designs, you know like really gone wrong and it's turned into something rude that the person didn't intend.
00:24:09:18 - 00:24:32:05
Liz Mosley
But I think there has that does need to be, you know, like I guess what is problematic about your example is that there was no consideration for like who was in the room and the fact that they would be offended by the example and that it is completely unnecessary like that did not need that. There's loads of ways to demonstrate that point.
00:24:32:07 - 00:24:43:18
Liz Mosley
That isn't a rude, that's racially offensive, a word that's racially offensive. So I think that, you know, that is something that we need to take into account in our education, like how we teach people.
00:24:43:21 - 00:24:48:14
Joyann Boyce
Sorry, you said it’s called kerning when the word and letters are to. Okay.
00:24:48:16 - 00:24:54:07
Liz Mosley
So that's the space between the, the letters in the word. Yeah.
00:24:54:13 - 00:25:04:10
Joyann Boyce
See, this is where speaking to a designer and Canva helps because Canva just calls that spacing and they have spacing up or spacing sideways and that's all that. But now I know. Kerning. Yeah.
00:25:04:11 - 00:25:27:02
Liz Mosley
Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's loads of like terminology like that, but then, yeah, like if you're pitching your product to non-designers, does it make sense for you to make it, you know, if someone, if they'd put into Canva kerning you would eventually work out what it was because you would have just like slid the slider around. But actually you're going to get there a lot quicker if they put spacing.
00:25:27:03 - 00:25:52:17
Liz Mosley
Yeah, I mean, a lot of the, a lot of the terminology in design comes from when they set type, you know, for letterpress. So like the space between lines is like ledding. So that's like to do with sort of like led blocks that they would have put between the left, the like, I'm not explaining it well but between the, like, like the blocks.
00:25:52:20 - 00:25:54:09
Joyann Boyce
The literal blocks, the physical things.
00:25:54:09 - 00:26:17:10
Liz Mosley
Yeah. So a lot of them come from stuff like that. But then there's like other there's other terms and this, this is something that I haven't really looked into as to how problematic it is and it's something I should look into because ever since I spoke to you, I keep saying things and then suddenly being like, hang on, where does that come from?
00:26:17:16 - 00:26:34:08
Liz Mosley
And is it problematic? Which is actually I'm really grateful for because it's really good. But like so for example. I know it will drive you crazy, but also, but also it’s interesting and I have like really consciously changed some of the things that I say because I'm like, why am I saying it like that? Just because it's all always been said like that.
00:26:34:08 - 00:26:55:00
Liz Mosley
It doesn't need to be said like that. But like one of the ones another terminology in design is, there's a few different options, but if you have a paragraph and then you have one word on its own at the end of the paragraph on the last line. So that's generally for designers. That's like a no-no. Like you don't want to have that one word at.
00:26:55:00 - 00:27:11:15
Liz Mosley
It's called well, some people call it a widow or some people call it an orphan. And like that's actually quite like emotive, you know. So like, I will say that and not think anything of it because, you know, my art director is going to know exactly what I mean. You know, like, that's just the term. She's like, you know, make sure you get rid of all the widows.
00:27:11:21 - 00:27:28:02
Liz Mosley
But then I was thinking about it and I was like, it is like a bit, it's a bit jarring, really. Like, why does that have to be the term? And I'm sure that it will have come from like years and years ago. And it's just like leftover. And actually it would probably be better to call it something else.
00:27:28:06 - 00:27:38:21
Joyann Boyce
Even just, I'm trying to think of like where could it have come from? And if we take it back like the 1800s, widows and orphans were not unfortunately beneficial to society.
00:27:38:21 - 00:27:57:14
Liz Mosley
Yeah. Yeah, they would. Yeah, exactly. And I think that is, so I think that it is highly likely that it is a has a problematic like connotation from way back, but that we're all just still using it because we haven't really bothered to question like why, yeah.
00:27:57:16 - 00:28:12:09
Joyann Boyce
That could be a mini mission. But then anything I can think of off the top of my head right now is just as bad because then you're teetering into a mental health loop because I was like, oh, make sure you remove all the loners and.
00:28:12:09 - 00:28:36:16
Liz Mosley
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, but then you do kind of need to phrase because saying the one word on the last line that's on its own, that's just too much of a mouthful, do you know what I mean? You need to come up with a term for it. But yeah, yeah, it's interesting. But then it's like how do you get a whole industry to like change that terminology so that everybody's on the same page and knows what the thing is.
00:28:36:22 - 00:29:04:11
Liz Mosley
But then I think, you know, like tools like Canva and Adobe Express where they're actually just putting in descriptors like spacing. This is the spacing, this is the spacing between lines, you know, like actually that just makes it more accessible for everybody. I think often these terms make design feel like this, like exclusive club that if you don't know the correct terminology, you're not part of it.
00:29:04:13 - 00:29:09:11
Liz Mosley
And that appeals doesn't feel great either.
00:29:09:13 - 00:29:36:14
Joyann Boyce
And I feel like this can also be a barrier to when, speaking about accessibility. But when you're working with a client or person, you're trying to make something suitable for them. If you're having to translate everything they say in their every day back to it. And if you suddenly drop a word that is not accessible, that can create an emotional divide to the person you're trying to get, understand what they user experience is because you're trying to design for them.
00:29:36:16 - 00:30:01:15
Liz Mosley
And I think I would never use those words with like a client, like I would literally if I was in a design team, I would use those words because I know that they would know I was on about I wouldn't use those words with a client because they wouldn't know what I meant. But I think there's a temptation as designers to use them to almost like, in a kind of like, I know more than you kind of way.
00:30:01:17 - 00:30:31:11
Liz Mosley
And I get the desire to do that because you want to prove that you have knowledge beyond what you know, The knowledge that they have beyond Canva and beyond the Adobe Express that you have. You have that training and you have that knowledge. But I think you're right. Sometimes I just think is it is like what's the word not trying to, the opposite of inclusive, it’s excluding people.
00:30:31:11 - 00:30:51:13
Liz Mosley
Yeah, yeah it's like and it's almost like educational snobbery. I don't know, you know, where you're just kind of like you're using terminology in a way unnecessarily just to sort of almost like hold your knowledge over someone. I don't know, maybe I'm, maybe I'm overthinking it, but I.
00:30:51:18 - 00:31:14:05
Joyann Boyce
I think it's valid. I think it definitely is valid because the whole aspect in the way I understand design is translating the things that people cannot. And I think visual representation there’s so many situations because my background, I started in social media marketing, so I had to learn design and copy at the same time, but just for social.
00:31:14:07 - 00:31:38:19
Joyann Boyce
So the context is very different. You're thinking tiny, you're thinking small, spacing is different. And I only understood how niche my understanding of design was when I tried to design a website and I was just like, This looks ugly. I don't know. I don't know why. I c an feel it. I didn't have the way to describe it. Then when I had a designer that actually designed a website.
00:31:38:19 - 00:31:46:24
Joyann Boyce
I said, oh, there's, there's so many layers to it. And that's what made me appreciate it from a marketers perspective.
00:31:47:01 - 00:31:47:16
Liz Mosley
Yeah.
00:31:47:18 - 00:31:54:19
Joyann Boyce
But I think from a person in the general public aspect, they get the feeling but they don't know they're getting it, they don't know.
00:31:54:19 - 00:31:57:23
Liz Mosley
That they can't explain it. Yeah, they can’t articulate it.
00:31:58:04 - 00:32:01:03
Joyann Boyce
I guess the only thing like it is the colour or the spacing or something.
00:32:01:05 - 00:32:22:00
Liz Mosley
I think that is one valid criticism of Canva is that it makes everybody think that they are a designer and Canva isn't what makes you a designer. You know, that works both ways. You know, like Canva is a tool. So if you use it as a designer, that's fine, because Canva is not what makes you a designer, but it also works the other way.
00:32:22:00 - 00:33:02:06
Liz Mosley
Like just because you have Canva and you can create things that look decent in it, that doesn't make you a designer either. And but it is until you still come up against something that you can't do or you can't articulate, that you then appreciate the skills that a designer has. And I, and I think that is why it makes designers feel insecure or makes them feel like they need to sort of badmouth it because, yeah, I think I think sometimes it makes people overconfident about their abilities and what they can do and like even what services they can offer to people.
00:33:02:10 - 00:33:09:00
Liz Mosley
So yeah, I mean, as always it’s very layered and it's not like a, it's not like a clear right or wrong.
00:33:09:00 - 00:33:38:09
Joyann Boyce
And so even when I think about how inclusivity works and I think when we first met, we spoke about inclusive design and how when I dove into inclusive design. And saw that has been going for such a long time, people have been talking about us as architecture and, and the colour contrast, and there's so many layers to it that coincide with the principles of design that I realised I couldn't learn one without the other.
00:33:38:09 - 00:33:41:15
Joyann Boyce
I couldn't learn inclusive design without learning the principles of design.
00:33:41:16 - 00:33:42:18
Liz Mosley
Yeah.
00:33:42:20 - 00:33:57:22
Joyann Boyce
Because colour contrast goes into colour theory, which goes into, you know, all these other things. And it's just fascinating how many layers there are. But to someone on the other end, they're just like, oh, that's just a logo design. That's not.
00:33:57:24 - 00:33:59:05
Liz Mosley
Yeah, totally.
00:33:59:07 - 00:34:10:09
Joyann Boyce
I'm curious to know, have you seen anything on your Internet, especially since we spoken where you’re just like that was not inclusive or problematic or very inclusive in the design world?
00:34:10:11 - 00:34:37:11
Liz Mosley
Yeah, I think there's a few things that sort of stand out to me. I think one of the big ones is when people. So I posted this TikTok once but got like a lot of hate, which was about, it was about inclusivity when it comes to websites. So we actually have like a legal requirement to try and make our websites as accessible as possible.
00:34:37:16 - 00:35:02:12
Liz Mosley
Now, it's not something that's heavily policed in the sense that there's not like a perfect solution. So it's not like you tick a lists of list of boxes and your website is accessible. So it's not like, oh, you've gone beyond like a certain point, we're going to get in touch with you. But there is like as business owners, there is or yeah, as someone with a website there is sort of like this mandate to try and make it as accessible as possible.
00:35:02:17 - 00:35:21:24
Liz Mosley
Anyway, people kicked off in the comments about this in my TikTok, but some companies are big companies, so it's not going to impact you as a small business probably. But that's not to say that you shouldn't do it, but some big companies have got into trouble because their website was not usable for a group of people. So I think it's something that's important to think about.
00:35:22:02 - 00:35:57:08
Liz Mosley
One of the things I see a lot is where people prioritise the over the functionality of the website. And this is an age old design creative problem, you know, form over function. And what I see people doing is DIYing their website, which is a totally valid thing to do. You can absolutely do it. You know, there's loads of tools that have made that possible for you, but basically people don't know how to code and so they can't get the elements that they want in the right place or maybe they can't get the font that they want or they can't get the text that they want.
00:35:57:14 - 00:36:21:07
Liz Mosley
And so what they do is put it all in an image so they'll like make it how they want it to look in Canva, and then they'll upload that as an image to their website and it will look nice. And if you have no visual impairment, you'll probably be able to read it. Fine. But if you do have a visual impairment and you're using a screen reader, your screen reader cannot read what the text you've put in an image.
00:36:21:07 - 00:36:44:01
Liz Mosley
And so that is hugely inaccessible and it's where you're prioritising how your website looks over whether someone can actually use it. And so in my mind, that is like a huge no-no, like I've seen it again with like it might not even be this sort of design motive per say, but like an illustrator, for example, who does hand lettering.
00:36:44:01 - 00:37:03:03
Liz Mosley
And so obviously they want their website to like, reflect their style. And so they'll write a load of content or they'll write their headers, you know, in their hand-lettered style. And again, it's like, well, there's a whole chunk of your website that someone who's visually impaired can't read, and it's going to massively diminish their experience of using your website.
00:37:03:03 - 00:37:26:16
Liz Mosley
And so in those instances, like either go away and learn how to make your own font of your handwriting and then that will work fine or. Just accept that you're going to have to sacrifice a bit of the aesthetic that you want because and ultimately, like design in particular is all about communication, is all about communicating as effectively as possible.
00:37:26:16 - 00:38:04:02
Liz Mosley
You know, like design is putting text, colours, images, illustrations, putting those things together. It's like creating order out of chaos so that that information is easier for people to consume and understand. And if you like, if you're prioritising it looking pretty over people actually being able to consume that content effectively, it's going to damn, it, it’s bad for you because they're just going to get frustrated and like jog on and it’s also bad for them because they don't feel, you know, like included in the content that you're creating.
00:38:04:02 - 00:38:34:06
Liz Mosley
So that's one of them. Another one is one of my biggest bugbears and I, I've done quite a lot of posts about this, not recently, so I'm going to do another one, but is centre aligned text. So people love to centralise large amounts of copy because to them it looks aesthetically pleasing because it's balance. So yeah, but what it means is it's really hard to read because your brain needs all the lines lined up so that you can find the next one really quickly.
00:38:34:06 - 00:38:53:24
Liz Mosley
If your eyes are having to jump around to find the next line like that. We don't realise it, but it's a lot more work for our brains. But what I realised is that if I get an email, I realised this years ago, I get an email and the whole thing is centre aligned. I just give up. I'd look at it and I just say, oh, this is, this is exhausting.
00:38:53:24 - 00:39:09:19
Liz Mosley
And I don't I just don't read it. So again, like you've prioritised the aesthetic and actually you're going to have loads of people and this actually is anybody. It's not people, it's not someone who's got a visual impairment. This is just this is bad for everybody.
00:39:09:21 - 00:39:28:21
Joyann Boyce
Is it reading, it’s, there's a reason we have all been trained to interact to the Internet a certain way. And I remember when someone wanted to, so they wanted to put their logo on the right hand side of their website in the panel. And I said no. They were like why? And I'm like, Because people haven't. There's certain things that we just do.
00:39:29:02 - 00:39:29:11
Joyann Boyce
I feel.
00:39:29:13 - 00:39:30:24
Liz Mosley
Without thinking.
00:39:31:01 - 00:39:36:10
Joyann Boyce
If you're breaking up that flow, you're causing people to have a icky feeling.
00:39:36:12 - 00:40:02:22
Liz Mosley
Yeah, yeah. And, and it like it causes friction and that friction, you know, like it's all subconscious, but there's only so much friction that we will tolerate and it's actually a very low amount. And so if and this is why websites, people get really frustrated about this, but this is why websites often look very similar. They have a very similar layout because exactly for that reason, you know, we expect the contact button to be in the top right.
00:40:02:22 - 00:40:18:14
Liz Mosley
Because that is like the sort of first place that I stop because we start top left, we go across and then we tend to zigzag down. So like that's why that buttons that the logo is in the top left because that's the first, that's where our eyes start. So we see what the business is so we know who's like giving us this information.
00:40:18:20 - 00:40:30:11
Liz Mosley
And so there's all this kind of like I mean, this is this is sort of UX design, isn’t it, you know, it's user experience and it's like how or UI. I get confused between the two.
00:40:30:13 - 00:40:33:11
Joyann Boyce
I think it’s a bit of both because UX is understanding and then UI is the doing.
00:40:33:12 - 00:40:35:12
Liz Mosley
How you actually do it. Yeah exactly.
00:40:35:12 - 00:40:36:18
Joyann Boyce
Sorry to UX/UI people for that.
00:40:36:18 - 00:41:01:01
Liz Mosley
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But yeah so actually like that there are certain best practices when it comes to website design and again people get upset about this because they're like, well, I want my website to be like really different and I want it to have things like flashing across and I want it to have this and that, and it's like, well, you can do those things, but it's not necessarily going to work that well for you.
00:41:01:04 - 00:41:21:00
Liz Mosley
Maybe you'll win an award for it, but will people actually enjoy using it or be able to get the information that they need? So I think there's always this tension. But those, those are sort of like a few examples of things that I see people doing quite a lot that I'm like, oh, like drive me crazy.
00:41:21:02 - 00:41:25:02
Joyann Boyce
The little things that I just like actually, just don’t, just.
00:41:25:04 - 00:41:48:07
Liz Mosley
Yeah. And then colour contrast is another obvious one. So like, yeah, we that's again and again, that's like prioritising aesthetics. So it's like you've got this kind of palette and you're like determined to use these colours together, but they're really like, the contrast isn't high enough and people can't read what you're saying. Like the number of talks I've been to where someone's used white text on a yellow background or yellow text on a white background.
00:41:48:08 - 00:41:53:06
Liz Mosley
And I'm like, oh, someone please explain the like, basics.
00:41:53:10 - 00:41:58:16
Joyann Boyce
What I realised is like that one and then pink and white.
00:41:58:18 - 00:42:00:05
Liz Mosley
Oh, yeah, interesting.
00:42:00:11 - 00:42:03:15
Joyann Boyce
I'm just like, why? And it's not, it's not Barbie Pink, everyone.
00:42:03:15 - 00:42:05:15
Liz Mosley
That pastel pink.
00:42:05:15 - 00:42:10:00
Joyann Boyce
Yeah, I was let's call it baby pink. And I'm like, why is it called Baby pink? But anyways.
00:42:10:02 - 00:42:18:06
Liz Mosley
Yeah, that's, that's another one. I feel like I'm basically as we talk, I'm making a mental list of phrases to go explore.
00:42:18:08 - 00:42:28:17
Joyann Boyce
Should it still be called baby pink and baby blue or is it just not needs any anymore? Because it’s gendering a, is it gender a, or is it? Okay. Nope. Stop.
00:42:28:19 - 00:42:29:08
Liz Mosley
Yeah.
00:42:29:10 - 00:42:29:22
Joyann Boyce
This is the rabbit hole I go down.
00:42:29:22 - 00:42:48:09
Liz Mosley
Let’s, let’s. But I want to find out what you discover. Of course. But that is the thing, isn't it? But I think and this is why you said at the beginning that it'll, like, drive you crazy, because you were talking about, you know, like, now you're so attuned now to question everything that you say and why we say it.
00:42:48:11 - 00:42:55:12
Liz Mosley
And I think one's your eyes are open to that. There's so many things that we say, but you're just like, where did that come from? And why am I saying it?
00:42:55:14 - 00:43:08:04
Joyann Boyce
There's so many, there's so many layers. Because then when you were all my algorithms are crafted now to show me things that are really good or really bad. So when I see things that are really bad, now I'm just like, that’s too obvious.
00:43:08:06 - 00:43:09:03
Liz Mosley
Mmm.
00:43:09:05 - 00:43:36:15
Joyann Boyce
They put Rainbow in the background or they've done something that I know is not acceptable, or I see things that are really good, but good in an unusual way. Like I recently, it was more illustration, I don’t know if it was illustration, but illustration design, I think I mentioned about how a lot of the times when I see mess ups in illustration and at the design world, it's all about skin tone and how they draw Black people.
00:43:36:17 - 00:43:57:19
Joyann Boyce
But the really good one I saw was on TikTok, a woman who designs cookies in the shapes of hats and faces and stuff like that. And I hadn't paid attention to the hands. I was just watching the design because she got all the skin tones right, different shades of Black women. She was using cookie icing to do the texture of Black hair.
00:43:57:21 - 00:44:11:19
Joyann Boyce
And this is something that the gaming industry, the design industry, the illustration industry are still trying to figure out the bare minimum, on the bare minimum of how to do not even like locks, which is what I have, but just curly black hair.
00:44:11:19 - 00:44:13:04
Liz Mosley
The texture. Yeah.
00:44:13:06 - 00:44:42:19
Joyann Boyce
And she managed to do it on a cookie. I watched this video three or four times and I realised halfway, halfway through the third time, oh, the woman's hands whose doing it is white. And then I went to the comments and everyone was just so appreciative because they went and looked at her other work and I was like, you put the same amount of effort that you did illustrating and white individuals on cookies as you did Black like they saw that the effort was put in and it wasn't just a oh, because post 2020.
00:44:42:21 - 00:44:43:22
Liz Mosley
Like a lazy.
00:44:43:24 - 00:44:58:02
Joyann Boyce
Yeah, everyone was just like, I'm just going to chuck. I'm just gonna chuck some shading in. I’m just gonna make this person brown. It’s like, you know, it doesn't work. So it's interesting when you see that level of effort put in for those things.
00:45:00:04 - 00:45:02:04
Joyann Boyce
But it unfortunately is rare.
00:45:02:06 - 00:45:23:22
Liz Mosley
Yeah. And I think like one of the things that really strikes me from our conversation is and this is something I've definitely felt as well, is that I think people listen to this sort of thing and feel overwhelmed and they're like, well, I can't get it all right straight away. Like, especially with like the accessibility on website. That's I think that's why people get really wound up about it because they feel like, well, I'm going to make a mistake.
00:45:23:22 - 00:45:50:04
Liz Mosley
But I think and this is why you're not going to get in trouble with the police it's, it's having the intention is the trying and it's the it's the being willing to learn. And you don't have to get it right immediately. But like keep improving it and keep and keep learning. You know, I am nowhere near an expert on like creating inclusive websites, but I'm like picking up new things all the time.
00:45:50:04 - 00:46:19:01
Liz Mosley
And I'm like, okay, I can see how that's going to cause a problem. So now in my process, I'm going to update that one thing, but it hasn't stopped me from like starting. And I think, I think that's the thing. But I think it's so encouraging, isn't it, where you see those good examples because and I think a lot of it is just that effort is like being willing to put in a bit more effort than you would normally to get it right, or she might not even have got it right.
00:46:19:01 - 00:46:25:19
Liz Mosley
But the fact is that she went and did some research and she put in, you could see that she put the effort in, even if it wasn't perfect.
00:46:25:21 - 00:46:49:03
Joyann Boyce
As people forget, the, the moment you become aware that something isn't inclusive doesn't mean you're going to be an expert in it, like you said. But you also forget how long it took you to get to where you are and the things you normally do. Like you are now having to rethink, okay, if I had always the colour contrast in this way, that's how I've built websites for the past 30 years.
00:46:49:05 - 00:47:10:19
Joyann Boyce
You're having to relearn all of that and make the steps to improve it. And I think it's like any skill if you don't keep practicing. And what frustrates me sometimes is a lot of times. I'm picking on illustrators, but they're the easiest examples, unfortunately, they do one thing, they get some negative comments.
00:47:10:21 - 00:47:13:15
Liz Mosley
And then they don't do it. Yeah.
00:47:13:17 - 00:47:23:05
Joyann Boyce
I think the nice thing when if you are doing websites and design for clients and branding, there's always another. There’s always another client.
00:47:23:07 - 00:47:26:00
Liz Mosley
Next one to do it better. Yeah.
00:47:26:02 - 00:47:38:04
Joyann Boyce
And if you're working in-house for a company, just put in a ticket for it to get like, it, it's always getting updated every company, every large organisation I know is always looking to update some part of a website or something.
00:47:38:10 - 00:47:58:01
Liz Mosley
Just because it's actually good, it's actually good for your SEO, for your website to be able to date. And I think yeah, so actually it's not like you design it and then not say it's done and you never do anything to it. Yeah, totally. And I'm like, I think this is an area where AI is really exciting because there's loads of tools now that actually might help with that.
00:47:58:01 - 00:48:13:14
Liz Mosley
So for example, I mean, this isn't, I don't know this is AI, but there's like plenty of websites where you can put in your hex codes for the colours on your website and it's going to give you a score as to how legible they're going to be. I mean, that's really easy, quick thing to do or eyesore.
00:48:13:16 - 00:48:32:04
Liz Mosley
I think this probably is AI or actually I don't know, but there's like a tool. So in Adobe Express, they have these plug ins and I saw one the other day where you basically you put the plug in in and then it assesses your it basically shows you what your design is going to look like, someone who's colourblind.
00:48:32:04 - 00:48:56:13
Liz Mosley
So it's like flagging up that there's like issues, someone who's colourblind. And so now there's more and more tools, and I think they'll get even more savvy and it'll almost be like you run your design through something and it's going to like highlight the problems for you, you know, in terms of accessibility. And that's going to be really, that is, that's, that's the sort of tools I get really excited about because I'm like, that's, that is really helpful.
00:48:56:16 - 00:49:07:01
Joyann Boyce
Yeah, there's tons out there. And the one thing I would go back to on your point on is make sure you check it, because there are tools out there now where you can put your image on it and it will write the alt text for you.
00:49:07:03 - 00:49:07:14
Liz Mosley
Okay.
00:49:07:20 - 00:49:19:18
Joyann Boyce
But everyone knows I harp on, AI is not good at understanding different skin tones. So check out all the text. Do not just copy and paste to just take it and run with it.
00:49:19:20 - 00:49:43:06
Liz Mosley
And, and I think that's where that philosophy of 70/30 is helpful because it's like use AI as a tool, but don't let it be the definitive final answer. You know, in the same way that like I had a friend who asked Char GBT a bunch of questions that he knew the answers to and it just confidently lied to him and, you know, like and it was so confident about it.
00:49:43:08 - 00:50:06:01
Liz Mosley
And so I think that’s it, is like we're almost like having, you know, in the same way that we kind of had to learn how to search things on the Internet. We're now having to learn how to process the information the AI gives us and have I guess that yeah, that wisdom to know what to check and yeah, I think yeah.
00:50:06:03 - 00:50:32:12
Joyann Boyce
When to check it. I am curious to know if every small business owner becomes slightly competent how that will affect the relationships of, you know, when you're doing brand development with them and you're giving them stuff and you say, hey, what's your thoughts on this? Are they going to come back one day and be like, well, I wanted something closer to this and sends you like a Chat GBT illustration of something.
00:50:32:14 - 00:50:59:06
Joyann Boyce
That's the bit that, it’s not, they know, because it's two things to me. Sometimes when you ask a client or someone who wants you to design something, what they want, they can't describe it. So I see it being helpful. The sense of here's a bunch of variations of the literal words you said, because sometimes that's the other bit where they say, I want it to be like a sky blue and you do something that, because sky blue, there's so many types of blue, but the literal words.
00:50:59:06 - 00:51:06:14
Joyann Boyce
And they’re like actually no, is it going to help conversation or is it going to harm conversation? Is my curiosity.
00:51:06:18 - 00:51:45:19
Liz Mosley
Yeah. And I think that is the thing that's a bit scary about all this is that we don't really know what the implications are going to be yet. I, my suspicion is, is that it's going to help a bit and it's going to harm a bit, you know, like it's going to be good and bad. And I think people don't often realise that being able to sort of express your thoughts about creative concepts or designs like, like a lot of people don't know how to articulate what is in their head when it comes to design.
00:51:45:21 - 00:52:06:01
Liz Mosley
Like that, I think, is a skill, you know, like how do you articulate a feeling that you want to, you know, how do you then represent a feeling in design? And so I think it will help people with that because they can, you know, maybe create a prompt with words that they're more familiar with and then they can tweak it until they get something they want.
00:52:06:03 - 00:52:38:18
Liz Mosley
But I think what we are going to see is things looking more and more like each other. And I think the I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if in the design industry, for example, you know, in the same way that vinyl became super popular, you know, I think we're going to see a resurgence of traditional techniques and very like hand created and that is going to be a selling point.
00:52:38:20 - 00:52:50:20
Liz Mosley
I mean, I don't think that's happened yet, but it'll be interesting to see, you know, if like letter, like letter press had already had quite a bit of a resurgence. It'll be interesting to see if that sort of happens again.
00:52:50:22 - 00:52:58:09
Joyann Boyce
Would you ever rebrand your packages with the label Human Made?
00:53:00:01 - 00:53:10:17
Liz Mosley
I don't think I would, because I do. Like, I can't create branding without a computer. I could create it without AI definitely.
00:53:10:17 - 00:53:14:24
Joyann Boyce
Yes, without AI it’s human made. It's not, in a, in a future world.
00:53:15:01 - 00:53:42:02
Liz Mosley
Yeah I guess I would. I would yeah. I would consider it. And I think that might become appealing to people, especially if they've got concerns about copyright issues. I mean, the big thing at the moment in branding, for example, is if I create your logo with AI, you can't copyright, you know, you can't trademark it sorry. Like you can be sure that someone else is not going to come out with something very similar or you haven't got a legal leg to stand on.
00:53:42:08 - 00:54:05:09
Liz Mosley
If they do. So I think that, it's going to be interesting to see how that develops, because I think there are going to be lots of like copyright issues. I think there's going to be lots of authenticity issues. So like a big one I saw the other day was people creating AI generated images of the like Gaza, Palestine, like the, the conflict in Palestine.
00:54:05:11 - 00:54:33:06
Liz Mosley
And it's like, yeah, it states that their AI but not everyone reads the small print and that's really, that is for news like news corporations particular like that's really problematic and something that they're like really aware of because it's not an accurate reflection of what's actually happening. I mean, it's such a minefield, isn't it? So I mean, I would definitely I would definitely consider using a label like that.
00:54:33:10 - 00:54:39:19
Liz Mosley
I think the thing that would put me off is not feeling confident that people understood what I meant.
00:54:39:21 - 00:54:48:13
Joyann Boyce
But it might become the trend. I'm thinking in a year or two years time that might be the thing where people start differentiating.
00:54:48:15 - 00:55:01:14
Liz Mosley
Yeah, I think we will start to see that. And I think, you know, we'll start to see like copywriters, you know, reassuring people that they're not using AI and that you are getting like, you know, that kind of. Yeah, I think, I think you're right. I think that could be where it goes.
00:55:01:16 - 00:55:16:14
Joyann Boyce
It sounds good and on that future aspects it's been lovely having you here, the present and having you on the podcast. Please let our audience know where they can find you on the internet.
00:55:17:03 - 00:55:27:04
Liz Mosley
I'm on Instagram, I'm at Liz M Moseley. My podcast is called Building Your Brand and my website is Liz Moseley Dot net.
00:55:27:06 - 00:55:42:15
Joyann Boyce
Absolutely fantastic. We'll pop all those links in the shownotes. Thank you for joining me on the Marketing Made Inclusive podcast and if you're listening have a favour to ask subscribe. You know.
00:55:42:15 - 00:56:02:14
Liz Mosley
Do it. It makes a huge difference. Yeah. And leave a review. Leave a review. I’ll ask for you. Yeah, I know. I feel it's really it's really like uncomfortable because I feel like I ask all the time, but it does. I'll ask on your behalf because it makes a huge difference. Leave a review.
00:56:02:16 - 00:56:12:10
Joyann Boyce
Wherever you are listening. Leave a review for the podcast, subscribe and share. Share with the designers, you know, let's, let's start that design war, you know that.
00:56:12:12 - 00:56:33:23
Liz Mosley
Yeah. Yeah. And I'm sure people will disagree with me, you know, like, yeah, it's such a complex conversation. But I think it's, I think this is what I'm excited about. What I loved chatting to you about is, I think, is the, the conversations that we need to start having. And like you have opened my eyes to things and now I'm looking at things differently.
00:56:33:23 - 00:56:41:16
Liz Mosley
And I think that is, you know, like I there's so many things I'm messing up, but that's just only a positive thing. I'm seeing it from a new perspective.
00:56:41:18 - 00:56:51:10
Joyann Boyce
The more mistakes you make, the more you can learn in life and. I enjoy being proven wrong. It's like, but then that also implies I always think I'm right. But let's not go down.
00:56:51:14 - 00:56:53:20
Liz Mosley
Yeah, it's a whole other rabbit hole.
00:56:53:20 - 00:57:16:06
Joyann Boyce
Whole other, whole other podcast theme. That's like psychology. But thank you so much for joining me on the Marketing Made Inclusive podcast. My name is Joyann Boyce. You can find me all over the internet @ Joyann Boyce. That's J O Y A N N B O Y C E. And tune in next week. We will continue to explore all things inclusive marketing.
