Ep 37: The Impact of an Inclusive Tone of Voice with Jess Hellens
Shownotes
Join Joyann and guest Jess Hellens as they delve into the importance of tone of voice in communication and how it plays a pivotal role in attracting the right people to your brand while excluding those who may not align with your values.
They also explore the concept of an inclusive workspace and authenticity online. Tune in to hear more about these crucial aspects of successful marketing and team building.
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You can find the transcript here.
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Listen to Jess’ previous episode on the podcast here
Small Is Beautiful: A Study of Economics As If People Mattered
Transcript
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:05:00
Joyann Boyce
Welcome and welcome back to the Marketing Made Inclusive podcast.
00:00:05:00 - 00:00:24:16
Joyann Boyce
We have Jess Hellens on the podcast, who’s the founder of Wild and has been here before. When we went on a tangent of a rabbit hole about period marketing, definitely recommend checking that one out. We had a good debate. However, Jess, for the individuals who may not have heard that podcast or may not know you, please tell us about yourself.
00:00:24:18 - 00:00:59:21
Jess Hellens
Hi, I'm Jess. I'm the founder of Wild Co-working, which is a virtual kind of hybrid community of women and non-binary people in business or self-employed women and non-binary people. I think you're going to ask me about the kind of background of Wild, so I won't go into that too much. But yeah, we're a hybrid in that we primarily do like hang out together online, co work together online, do goal setting sessions, workshops, all of that, all on Zoom.
00:00:59:23 - 00:01:06:07
Jess Hellens
But we also have in-person meet ups in London, Bristol, Frome, and then other areas that I'm looking for ambassadors in.
00:01:06:07 - 00:01:12:16
Jess Hellens
So anyway we're hybrid, we're virtual and we're in-person. A fusion.
00:01:12:16 - 00:01:36:07
Joyann Boyce
A fusion. I love it. And I wanted to talk to Jess about Wild because Jess doesn't know this, but Wild and Wild’s marketing have been on my case study board for a little while and I've been meaning to talk to her about it. I'm just like, how could I approach my friend and tell her I want to make her a case study, but instead I'm going to ask her to be on my podcast.
00:01:36:09 - 00:01:52:06
Joyann Boyce
No, but the marketing for Wild is very fascinating and I think Jess has heard the what is it inclusive marketing question before. So I wanted to shift it and ask you what does an inclusive community mean to you?
00:01:52:08 - 00:02:54:20
Jess Hellens
It's Wild, basically, which of course I'll explain that. Inclusive to me and, and I think if people don't work in our kind of spaces, as in a space for, a whole space for holding a community or community holding space for minorities or marginalised groups, then they might think that a, a community for self-employed women and non-binary people might be exclusive and not inclusive, which I’ve definitely come up against that conversation and that question when I was first setting up Wild, thankfully, times have changed a tiny bit in that people realise how important it is for these safe spaces, both online and in real life.
00:02:54:22 - 00:03:14:02
Jess Hellens
In order for us to. I don't really, I mean, I guess gain a bit of equality, but that is so complex and that is like we know that it's not just about like, oh, okay, if we provide a platform for these people where we're good, we want to be equal with the oppressor, like that is all very complex.
00:03:14:02 - 00:03:48:03
Jess Hellens
But essentially, Wild is an inclusive community, even though it's full of self-employed women and non-binary people because I wanted it to be. It's great that it's me that owns it and but how you bring that those people together, because I get asked that a lot as well, like how do you find those people? And there's two levels to marketing your own personal brand.
00:03:48:03 - 00:04:10:20
Jess Hellens
And at the beginning it was really, really hard to do my own marketing because I'm a marketing person. It's hard to do your own stuff, but now I've kind of gone through that and I realised that being myself is absolutely like the most important thing, and I genuinely believe in that. Whatever you put out there, you bring back in.
00:04:10:20 - 00:04:27:20
Jess Hellens
And I think that goes for brands as well. You know, like that's kind of like old fashioned or traditional marketing technique is if you if you represent, you bring those people or whatever you are trying to market back into your business.
00:04:27:20 - 00:04:51:03
Joyann Boyce
But I'm curious to know, because I am part of Wild and I've seen the members and even in your description of it's for women and non-binary people. As, as far as I know yourself, you're not non-binary. So how do you market your personal brand and make a non-binary person feel included and feel like they can approach you?
00:04:51:03 - 00:05:13:18
Joyann Boyce
Because I'm just going to come out with my bias upfront communities for women, especially when there's a white woman lead in there, tend to have a certain kind of quality of I'm a mommy blogger and I am going to wear leggings and we're going to have $50 lattes and we're all going to sell courses about how, I don't know.
00:05:13:20 - 00:05:32:15
Joyann Boyce
Herbal Essence can change your life. I have no issue with Herbal Essences, do not sue me, but that's the kind of, any time I hear communities like that, that's the imagery that comes in my mind. So having a tagline that includes that and is trying to put that out there, but you're also the face of it, I imagine it's quite difficult to market.
00:05:32:17 - 00:06:17:10
Jess Hellens
Yeah, has been very difficult in that I wanted to be inclusive and I'm very aware of me being a white woman from the, of, of course I know what I am. But as in like, I know that if I am, I'm not like that, that's one thing I think. I think it's because I'm not that leggings wearing £10 latte person, no shade because I love takeaway coffee ana I love pilates. But I'm not that like I mean I think that the difference is, is that from the very beginning I was like, I don't want it to become that because that's part of the patriarchy, that's part of the racist patriarchy that is like peak white feminism.
00:06:17:10 - 00:06:53:01
Jess Hellens
And it's so easy for me to like, capitalism makes its, you know, it doesn't give you much option other than really going for like that, the path of least resistance and not making a change and having a purpose led business that wants to make a change, like Wild we want, I want to change the business landscape. But that's what I've always wanted to do because I don't want to keep going to networking events that are full of white men in clipping cloppy shoes. That’s why I started it
00:06:53:01 – 00:06:53:06
Joyann Boyce
Hold on, wait, clippy cloppy shoes?
00:06:53:06 - 00:07:07:06
Jess Hellens
You know what I mean, the, the grey suits and the clippy copy shoes and their super pointed.
00:07:07:12 - 00:07:10:18
Joyann Boyce
And shiny. Why are they so shiny?
00:07:10:20 - 00:07:16:23
Jess Hellens
But they've got like watches but they're quite loose watches. And they might have like crumbs from a bacon bap down them.
00:07:17:00 - 00:07:21:09
Joyann Boyce
It's a very detailed persona and not thinking of anyone's specific.
00:07:21:09 - 00:07:33:04
Jess Hellens
You know, exactly what I mean though. Those ones that are like if you go to a networking event, they're a bit sweaty and quite red and don't respect you and would never expect you to own a business.
00:07:33:06 - 00:07:35:22
Joyann Boyce
They ask you, who do you work for?
00:07:35:24 - 00:07:54:17
Jess Hellens
Oh, the amount of times like, oh, who do you work for? Myself. Oh, really, what I sit that you do? Like suddenly you feel like a schoolgirl. That's my experience. But anyway, we digressing again. Sorry about that.
00:07:54:17 - 00:08:09:01
Joyann Boyce
You were saying, while is on a mission to not be that so you're not. So when you're creating your persona, you have that list of what it's not and it's not, clippy cloppy shoes and crumbs on your chest. Unless you what comes on your chest. But yeah.
00:08:09:04 - 00:08:38:17
Jess Hellens
I mean, no shade, like I've got crumbs on me most of the time, so. It's just mainly that I don't want it to become this like classic traditional business networking where we have business breakfast and men were there because that is not a space that I was enjoying. I didn't feel accepted. I felt underestimated. The amount of times that I've been underestimated as a business owner is shit and it's been too often and I was really frustrated with it.
00:08:38:19 - 00:09:07:20
Jess Hellens
And so that's been my mission from the start and that's been my objective. And, and that's kind of been the journey for me as well, because as we are aware, I do not represent a large chunk of the audiences that I want to help change the business landscape, not for because it's very white saviour. I mean, I want to change the business landscape so everyone feels like they've got a place in it.
00:09:07:22 - 00:09:09:10
Jess Hellens
So.
00:09:09:12 - 00:09:14:13
Joyann Boyce
Sorry, I was just going to say, when you're creating, so when you're thinking of content.
00:09:14:15 - 00:09:15:07
Jess Hellens
Yeah.
00:09:15:09 - 00:09:22:17
Joyann Boyce
And you're thinking of creating for those individuals that you don't necessarily have lived experience for.
00:09:22:17 - 00:09:25:24
Jess Hellens
Yeah.
00:09:25:24 - 00:09:41:06
Joyann Boyce
What, what comes. How does that vision board appear? Because I'm guessing you can't look at your competitors marketing and be like, okay, we're going to steal some of this and do a little bit, which is the traditional route. You know, you look at your competitors and then you differentiate how you want to be slightly different or slightly similar to what they're doing.
00:09:41:08 - 00:09:42:01
Jess Hellens
Yeah.
00:09:42:03 - 00:09:43:13
Joyann Boyce
Where are you pulling from?
00:09:43:15 - 00:09:48:09
Jess Hellens
I'll be honest of a response with you, I wish I was that strategic with my marketing.
00:09:48:11 - 00:09:55:10
Joyann Boyce
Let's admit it, we say it, we advise clients and then we're just like fudge cakes, just everywhere.
00:09:55:10 - 00:10:38:16
Jess Hellens
I can advise people as like till I'm blue in the face and it will work like my strategies work for other people. And I like I do. I know who I am, who my audience is, I know what my objectives are and I know what kind of content I need to produce. But honestly, it's I think mainly in our in the way that I talk about Wild on the website, it's more about the copywriting and the things that I say than yes, the imagery is great and that's really important to show people how brilliant our community is and like what's available and who I am, that's fine.
00:10:38:18 - 00:11:07:11
Jess Hellens
But actually the way I talk about way out on the website especially, I'm very, very clear that we are not welcoming, you are no, never allowed anywhere near wild. If you are TERF, trans exclusionary radical feminist, for those who don't know what TERF is, but no way are you allowed anywhere near us. We're inclusive, intersectional and we welcome women and non-binary people.
00:11:07:13 - 00:11:33:03
Jess Hellens
But also what I talk about is how Wild is here for you, is always here for you, and you can come as you are. And I talk to people very, and you’ve seen me talk to people within the community. This week I really went off on like my, how I felt about business and, you know, my thoughts which can go anywhere but luckily
00:11:33:07 - 00:12:05:00
Jess Hellens
it’s from a lot of personal breaks and learning. So I don't share stuff until I'm comfortable with, you know, that I've done the research to make sure that I am using the right language and that I am representing people in the appropriate way. And I think the difference with Wild would like, for example, when we first started, we, when I first opened Wild, it was a physical co-working space and I described it as a co-working space for people who identify as a woman.
00:12:05:04 - 00:12:11:07
Jess Hellens
Right. And woman had an ex where the a is.
00:12:11:09 - 00:12:13:03
Joyann Boyce
That was a thing that was going around for a while.
00:12:13:03 - 00:12:38:24
Jess Hellens
Yeah. That, that was at the time appropriate. And that was kind of the language that was used and I have lots of friends who are part of the trans community and so I spoke to them about certain ways, but I was talking about who can use the space, that kind of thing, the language. I did my research and that was correct at the time.
00:12:39:01 - 00:13:00:22
Jess Hellens
Then I noticed changes. I did my research again and I understood like the kind of phrasing that I needed to use. I think that's the difference, is that it wasn't performative it’s just part of what Wild is, is that I'm also always open to being wrong. And I think that's where people, we’ve spoken about that a lot in the past as well.
00:13:00:22 - 00:13:32:01
Jess Hellens
You and I. That's where people go wrong, bizarrely, is when they're afraid to go wrong. So then they don't try at all and they don't like look in to how they can be more inclusive. And I'm not saying like I am, Wild is not like ten out of ten inclusive or, you know, accessible. But the, my objective is always that and whatever budget I've got, I'll, I'll do as much as I can within my means in terms of like, you know, making things accessible.
00:13:32:03 - 00:13:47:01
Jess Hellens
There's free stuff you can do, like making sure all our in-person meet ups are on step free level and explain exactly where we are, who they can expect to see. But there's loads of ways for it to feel inclusive.
00:13:47:05 - 00:13:52:18
Joyann Boyce
But I think one of the main things you mentioning though is you have full control of the tone of voice.
00:13:52:18 - 00:13:53:08
Jess Hellens
Yeah.
00:13:53:10 - 00:14:14:16
Joyann Boyce
And that's where you’re, it's so fascinating because for most big organizations the focus tends to be on the imagery. But I guess something I didn't even consider with a personal brand, imagery is you it is what you have access to it’s who you turn up to. But the tone of voice is where you have the most creativity to represent. I also love what you said around you updated it as it goes.
00:14:14:16 - 00:14:40:12
Joyann Boyce
The thing about inclusive language is that it does change with the times and not, I don't know if I would, I don't know how to phrase it, but and obviously you didn't do this in this manner, but the user research you did by asking your friends it was these like, here's a form, but and having access to individuals who are different from you seem to influence all of those changes.
00:14:40:14 - 00:14:51:19
Joyann Boyce
And it's just fascinating now that I'm thinking about looking at your marketing and I highly recommend individuals to go look at it, how much the tone of voice probably plays more into it than I suspect.
00:14:52:00 - 00:14:52:22
Jess Hellens
Yeah.
00:14:52:24 - 00:14:55:15
Joyann Boyce
Because when you think personal brand you think person.
00:14:55:17 - 00:14:56:17
Jess Hellens
Yeah.
00:14:56:19 - 00:15:10:09
Joyann Boyce
But I guess once people look at you, they like you. Then they go into the website and the website content and the tone of voice you have there probably reassures any kind of biases they have about what you or the club might be like.
00:15:10:11 - 00:15:41:03
Jess Hellens
Yeah, yeah, I think so. I think that makes such a huge difference. And it is. It's, it's really subtle things that people probably don't notice, and I certainly don't anymore because it's like, well, I do make a conscious effort to make sure that I am using the correct language if I'm talking about something specific. But for example, if I'm talking to everyone in the WhatsApp group, I won’t say, good morning ladies.
00:15:41:05 - 00:16:12:22
Jess Hellens
I'll say, good morning, everyone, or I'll say wonderful people, not wonderful women. Yes, we use women because it is for women as well. Like I, it's it can be inclusive and specific at the same time. But it's those kind of like subtleties that make people feel really included. That's the difference. And I, I think when I like, sometimes I offer free chats if someone wants to have a chat about what Wild is and whether it's right for them.
00:16:12:24 - 00:16:31:21
Jess Hellens
And I'm really up front about what Wild is and what Wild isn't. And I have that on the website as well. I talk very openly and confidently about what Wild is and who isn't welcome and what that does is turn off the right people and it brings the right people.
00:16:31:23 - 00:16:33:16
Joyann Boyce
There's exclusion inclusion.
00:16:33:22 - 00:17:00:02
Jess Hellens
Yeah, I want to exclude those TERFS. I want to exclude people that are happily racist or ableist or ageist. Basically, it stops people from applying when I use that, that language and it touches a nerve, it's unlikely that they'll come into that. Well, that's what I'm hoping. I don't want anyone horrible.
00:17:00:02 - 00:17:24:15
Joyann Boyce
Coming in. I'm curious to know we're using intentionally inclusive language in the majority and all of your content, as far as I can see. How does that have an impact when you do have people that stumble upon you? Because we can't control who sees it and you do have people who are not your target audience? Yeah, because a lot of people I speak to, they have a sense of fear of using inclusion language because they might not use it right.
00:17:24:15 - 00:17:44:14
Joyann Boyce
They might not use it. But as the other side of it, where when you do use things like women with a x, I remember for a client we used that and people started commenting that your erasing women and blah blah blah. And it's like, you’re not our target audience go away. But how do you tend to engage and react when you have that situation on your content.
00:17:44:16 - 00:18:20:05
Jess Hellens
Thankfully I haven't had it for a while, but I definitely have had it. When Wild first opened I was a target for what's that really prevalent TERF campaign where they've put billboards up about what is a real woman. They’ve like I can't remember what they called, but she came for me and basically just launched an attack at our content and at me in the dms.
00:18:20:07 - 00:18:51:13
Jess Hellens
And, I just I kind of, at first I was like, crikey, what on earth is going on? Because it's never nice if someone comes, you know, whether they're horrible or not. But it was a massive lesson in me knowing that this is absolutely needed. What she did was, it was the opposite of what she was hoping to do.
00:18:51:15 - 00:19:25:08
Jess Hellens
She actually reaffirmed to me that how important it is to have these safe spaces because people like her exist and they want to erase trans people. They want to erase non-binary and quite, quite literally that that's how they talk. And so I was like, you know, let's have a conversation. And I knew what she wanted. She wanted an argument, and I wasn't going to give it to her because she already knows what I'm going to say, right?
00:19:25:10 - 00:19:49:11
Jess Hellens
So I just whenever that comes, I haven't had it for a long, long time, thankfully. If I do ever have anyone kind of questioning what Wild is or like, as a not in a good way, I just treat it with grace, to be honest. And if they disrespect or they're horrible to me, I'll block them. But generally I'll have a conversation because it helps me learn too.
00:19:49:13 - 00:20:16:18
Jess Hellens
I think a lot of the time when you are in a bubble and like the way that agora, algorithms all that, however do you want to describe it. You've become part of this bubble, right? And I'm in a lovely Wild bubble that I have to actively step outside of and seek out for example, like the awful GB news or whatever it’s called, that horrible news outlet because.
00:20:16:18 - 00:20:16:20
Joyann Boyce
You watch it?
00:20:16:20 - 00:20:52:11
Jess Hellens
Yeah. No, no, I don't watch it. Don't watch it. If someone shares like one of my like socialist channels that I follow shares like a tag of that news channels Instagram for example, I'll go and watch a bit because I think it's so important to see how people are talking about issues in the world and what still needs to, as in what I still need to work on in order to change stuff and what language is being used and how I can tackle that.
00:20:52:11 - 00:21:13:23
Jess Hellens
And how I can change the world. Because how am I going to know what needs changing if I don't break out of my bubble? If I stay in my bubble, I'm going to think, oh, job done, I'm not going to carry on. And that, I honestly think that that's why bubbles are created, because then there's no conflict, right?
00:21:13:23 - 00:21:33:15
Jess Hellens
And conflict means change. And so for me going to like force it, I went to a really corporate networking thing that day and I was like, oh my God, I hate it. But it was important for me to see that because like I felt out of place again and I felt nervous and sick and like no one was very friendly.
00:21:33:15 - 00:21:35:17
Jess Hellens
And I was like, well, it still needs changing then.
00:21:35:19 - 00:22:03:22
Joyann Boyce
And that still gives you, that's continuing to define what you're USP and what makes Wild special. Like if you, and I agree so much like if you stay too much in your own world and maybe one day society catches up to the way that, not catches up to us like we're ten miles ahead. But things change. Maybe, you know, all networking events change and then people can’t differentiate what the difference is.
00:22:03:24 - 00:22:04:21
Jess Hellens
Yeah.
00:22:04:23 - 00:22:18:05
Joyann Boyce
That again, I'm all, I'm classing all of this as user research. The bets the research, user research but it's a good way to stay attached to what's happening, the viewpoints and to make sure you're excluding the people you intend to.
00:22:18:11 - 00:22:44:18
Jess Hellens
Yeah, Yeah. And I think that's a big mistake that people, I don't know if it's mistake or that not all communities like ours actually want to affect change, whereas I do. And so that comes into everything. The idea like, you know, am I making people feel comfortable or am I encouraging them to turn up as they are? And that means, you know, on our goal setting session, that means keep your camera off if you want.
00:22:44:18 - 00:23:14:03
Jess Hellens
If you want to, keep your mic off, turn up in your pyjamas, have a cry, if you want, because the amount of times I've worked in toxic, toxic corporate environments where I've got forbid shown some emotion and been made to feel like I'm not good enough at my job because I've got emotion. Whereas in my opinion, as a self-employed person, we, we can use all of that to, to create businesses that are way better than all these like faceless corporations.
00:23:14:05 - 00:23:25:23
Jess Hellens
So why not allow people to have space to feel safe as they are and, and turn up completely as themselves? That's the change. That's where the change comes from.
00:23:26:00 - 00:23:56:23
Joyann Boyce
Where do you think? Because I had an interesting challenge the other day around. So essentially what I'm interpretation is about being authentic, being your full self in all aspects. But there's an element that's happening, especially in personal brands and marketing, where authenticity is kind of getting baked, where, you know, sometimes they forget to cut the camera too soon when they're crying or they’re, they're organising scripts of arguments or they're making up fake things when clients didn't pay them.
00:23:57:00 - 00:24:14:13
Joyann Boyce
How? Because I know you don't do any of those things. But there's also an element of when you're being yourself that is part of life. Like I know I've seen a couple of your reels where you're talking about the stresses of just running a business. How do you balance I don't know what that opposing thing to it is.
00:24:14:16 - 00:24:22:05
Joyann Boyce
I guess being fake authentic to real authentic. I do you get what I'm trying to say. How do you balance how that might be perceived?
00:24:22:07 - 00:24:45:00
Jess Hellens
Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, I think I just give less of a shit. But if someone thinks it's fake and I know it's not that, like, that's fine. You crack on. I'm not going to fake anything. I'll just be completely, completely myself, which is also my downfall in a lot of, a lot of the time because I don't like batch content.
00:24:45:01 - 00:25:13:13
Jess Hellens
I don't like think, oh, I know, I'll talk about this in this month. I'll talk about, you know, I know that I've got memberships opening next week, for example, so I'll make sure there's information about that. There's like a schedule for what's coming up this month, that kind of thing. But when it's me and my stories and reels quite often, I've, I've recorded that reel 10 seconds before I posted it because I felt like talking about it.
00:25:13:15 - 00:25:15:04
Joyann Boyce
Are you the only one doing your content?
00:25:15:10 - 00:25:38:03
Jess Hellens
Yeah. Yeah. I think that makes such a difference. And I'm I do think that there’s like it’s that small economy thing that I, that's, that's the challenge for me is making sure the community still feels intimate and that everyone has access to me bizarrely as the founder because ultimately I'm the one that's like talking about what I want to do and what Wild is.
00:25:38:03 - 00:25:49:02
Jess Hellens
And people signing up because they like what I talk about and so often I've, I've joined communities where you join and you expect to meet the founder and then you're like oh.
00:25:49:07 - 00:25:51:10
Joyann Boyce
You get 2 seconds of them and they just disappear.
00:25:51:12 - 00:26:19:22
Jess Hellens
I’m disappointed Yeah, they've gone and I don't want that to happen. That's the balance in, in authenticity for me is that like I always want to show up authentically and in Wild as well as outside, you know, in public. And that means that my energy is not sustainable a lot of the time. So strategically it's not brilliant, but I prefer to be completely myself and for growth to be slightly slower, which I'm not sure it makes a huge difference.
00:26:19:24 - 00:26:26:11
Jess Hellens
Rather than create content, just for content’s sake because it always falls on that is, in my opinion anyway.
00:26:26:13 - 00:26:51:23
Joyann Boyce
Though the slow growth is, is a new aspect of business as well. But I'm curious to know because you making content in that manner and again, we know better as people who consult marketing, we encourage people to get schedulers and do all these things, but I guess your two options would be getting someone to help you with the content and slash or introducing another face to the brand.
00:26:52:00 - 00:27:11:01
Joyann Boyce
Yeah, the introducing another face one is the one I want to kind of explore because that as a personal brand introducing another cast, because I call it a cast, because we watch YouTube and we see these things and we kind of forget people are real people until we meet them, introduce another face another member of your cast.
00:27:11:04 - 00:27:12:13
Jess Hellens
Yeah.
00:27:12:15 - 00:27:32:06
Joyann Boyce
How do you think you'd go about really getting across the brand tone of voice, really getting across all of these things that are somewhat instilled in you and you've portrayed onto the business and now they're kind of one of the same. But scalability wise, if you wanted to bring someone else in.
00:27:32:12 - 00:28:01:13
Jess Hellens
Yeah. So Paulina is our community coordinator and she's kind of part of the business regularly. She helps me behind the scenes, but she also runs sessions and she shows up answers questions, works with in-house coaches, that kind of thing. So she's kind of part of our team page. She's a freelancer with, within her own right. She's not employed by me as in PAYE but she, I pay her on a retainer.
00:28:01:15 - 00:28:32:23
Jess Hellens
And because of that scale, I need scale business. That's what you do with the business. But she has been a member since I opened the doors for the trial. Right. So I open. I open the doors physically in our coworking space. So as a like open day, she was the first one through the door and she was like, oh my God, I'm so happy you've opened this and, and really got wild.
00:28:32:23 - 00:28:54:00
Jess Hellens
She still does. She brings a totally different type of energy to me, which I think is also really important for a community because it can't all, not everyone needs to relate to me, which is fine. There's lots of different people that like what I'm about, but maybe could do with someone else's point of view on something, which I think is really good.
00:28:54:02 - 00:29:23:06
Jess Hellens
Again, I think you have to be just really careful with who you work with. And, and as a business owner of the purpose led business, that I've got that role before in terms of someone working for me back in a vague capacity just wasn't right. But I wouldn't bring them into the community until I was absolutely happy that they wouldn't one, they wouldn't like offend anyone, which is, you know, basic to that.
00:29:23:06 - 00:29:47:14
Jess Hellens
They know how to look after a space and how to keep it safe. And that, and that's the key thing at Wild is that, yes, we are primarily a business network. And so whoever works within that me or Paulina whoever else might come in to run sessions or coaches, that kind of thing, they have to believe in the Wild mission.
00:29:47:15 - 00:30:12:19
Jess Hellens
They have to believe in what we stand for. And again, the way that I talk about it will either put people off or make them go, Hell yeah, I want a piece of the action. I believe in what you're talking about. And I think because it is such a strong like as it is very clear what we're about, it's easier in that sense, it’s easier to find the people that believe it.
00:30:12:21 - 00:30:29:13
Jess Hellens
Whereas if you're like a business network and you haven't really got like you've got a team and you just want to bring people and make money and blah, blah, blah, and it's quite general, then on one hand it might be easier because, you know, you don’t have to worry too much about whether someone's going to keep it safe or not.
00:30:29:13 - 00:30:49:22
Jess Hellens
But also it’s quite hard because then you can't really align your team with your brand. So I think it's easier for me to find the right people to align with what Wild stands for. But scaling that, absolutely. It's something that I'm thinking about at the moment, like how would I bring more people in so that we can?
00:30:50:01 - 00:31:31:02
Jess Hellens
Because ultimately my objective, one of my objectives is to help as many women and non-binary people in the UK. And actually loads of people in the US want to be part of it. The how, how am I going to scale that. But keep the same values and the mission alive and make sure nobody feels unsafe because ultimately then if that happens, we become the oppressor and that's not one then that, that's why when I see like businesses grow super duper quickly and it's a personal brand, I always like one.
00:31:31:02 - 00:31:35:00
Jess Hellens
How are they doing that and to how long is it going to last?
00:31:35:04 - 00:31:36:18
Joyann Boyce
Growing it at that scale.
00:31:36:20 - 00:31:58:12
Jess Hellens
Is that sustained or are they going to have a huge turnover of members? Because I've had members of Wild since 2019 and we're 2023 now. That's a long time for membership to have members, and I think that just goes to show how safe and comfortable and how seen and how heard people feel at Wild.
00:31:58:14 - 00:32:00:16
Joyann Boyce
So indulge me for a moment.
00:32:00:18 - 00:32:01:16
Jess Hellens
Yeah, go on.
00:32:01:18 - 00:32:07:24
Joyann Boyce
Let's say I'm not going to put a time on it, but let's say Wild goes international.
00:32:08:01 - 00:32:13:01
Jess Hellens
International, baby. Well, we have had a one member from L.A. I'll have you know.
00:32:13:03 - 00:32:22:17
Joyann Boyce
And but international to the point where you need a marketing team of at least like five people in each country or region that is in.
00:32:22:19 - 00:32:23:17
Jess Hellens
Yeah.
00:32:23:19 - 00:32:44:15
Joyann Boyce
What would your brand guideline, tone of voice stuff look like to explain? I want to go with to explain the tone of voice like how are you crafting this inclusive tone of voice and writing it on paper for someone who may not meet you to understand.
00:32:48:03 - 00:33:17:17
Jess Hellens
Yeah, it is a really good question. I think honestly, what would have to come first is what's important to the community. So basing it on, rather than like when I'm communicating, if I'm doing your scenarios, if I'm talking to a marketing team, they probably already know about like Wild, like what Wild is. But in terms of like how to communicate to potential new audiences.
00:33:17:23 - 00:33:48:20
Jess Hellens
Yes, there's the basic got Wild is this, Jess is this blah, blah, blah. But the tone of voice needs to make people feel safe, represented, heard, seen, included as in however you turn up, you're welcome, like you're welcome at Wild. And I think then going deeper into that for them to spend time in the community would be like, non-negotiable.
00:33:48:22 - 00:34:02:24
Jess Hellens
Oh, they would have to understand what it's like to be in there, right? The have to. People that are doing my marketing now are members.
00:34:03:01 - 00:34:16:05
Joyann Boyce
Oh, you're, you're, you're beating the capitalistic in me. Because what I'm hearing is that you've got a new hire. And they say on average, a new hire takes like what, three months to be beneficial?
00:34:16:10 - 00:34:16:19
Jess Hellens
Yeah.
00:34:16:23 - 00:34:19:10
Joyann Boyce
I feel like you adding another month to that.
00:34:19:12 - 00:34:41:13
Jess Hellens
That's okay. Why does it have to be fast. It's not been fast so far, And how much like how much growth does one need? How much money does one need? You know, I think there's a limit and I think I talk about this a lot, beautiful small economy or whatever it's called, small is beautiful or something like that.
00:34:41:15 - 00:35:01:24
Jess Hellens
And that talks about how there's a point where it tips over into not, not intimate anymore. Like you lose all the values, the way the staff feel, the way the company runs it tips over into Amazon, which is a machine. No one gives a shit about anyone. It makes money, done.
00:35:02:01 - 00:35:11:16
Joyann Boyce
So I guess instead of a probation period, I guess it would be four months of cultural, not indoctrination but indoctrination is the word I'm thinking of.
00:35:11:18 - 00:35:15:22
Jess Hellens
It, yeah, because we are a cult.
00:35:15:23 - 00:35:16:20
Joyann Boyce
But I do.
00:35:16:22 - 00:35:17:21
Jess Hellens
It’s not a cult.
00:35:17:23 - 00:35:22:09
Joyann Boyce
It's not a cult. We legal disclaimer, Wild
00:35:22:16 - 00:35:47:16
Joyann Boyce
Coworking is not a cult. I do think that's interesting as a concept where there's a separate month of just pure in the community before you are as an employee. Like I'm thinking if I was, if I was coming on as a copywriter for Wild and I knew the brand and I, one knowing a brand externally and then you're going into working for them, you have a level of expectations.
00:35:47:21 - 00:35:58:08
Joyann Boyce
You're probably thinking, we've had this for clients before where we see that stuff, or we're thinking, Oh my God, they probably have all the brand guidelines. They probably really on top of it. Then we go in there, we're like, this is a shit show.
00:35:58:10 - 00:36:08:17
Jess Hellens
They’re like we put the logo on everything in the bottom right hand corner and we've go it on a word file, not in a PNG or whatever it is.
00:36:08:19 - 00:36:33:07
Joyann Boyce
But you go in and it's a whole different experience. But when you go in, you expect it to reduce content and produce these things instantly. And I'm kind of liking in this idea of there being an element of community engagement in your first month, to really understand a tone of voice, really dive in there and then your I don't like the word probation, but then your probation starts.
00:36:33:09 - 00:36:51:13
Joyann Boyce
Yeah, that's fascinating. So, so I'm joining the Wild team. I'm in Texas and my first month is just all Wild everything. I go to all the sessions, I meet, all the community, I go to the just all Wild everything. I wear the merch every day.
00:36:51:15 - 00:37:04:04
Jess Hellens
I love how the view world for you is massive. I am love. I am living for that. Yes, it's all over the world. We’ve got merch.
00:37:04:06 - 00:37:24:19
Joyann Boyce
Going to the extremes of shifting the networking tone of, the networking tone and the networking vibe and fully influencing it, we need to combat the leggings and $50 £10 lattes. So therefore we need to be in spaces to give people options. And see, I've already started using the royal we because.
00:37:24:21 - 00:37:28:00
Jess Hellens
How, you are coming along for the ride whether you like it or not.
00:37:28:02 - 00:37:48:01
Joyann Boyce
I need to rock up anywhere in the world and find a Wild. But I also love envisioning this because it is that double edged coin when it comes to inclusive language where, when people started themselves, they don't think about scaling it and then when they scale it, they don't know how to explain it.
00:37:48:03 - 00:37:48:22
Jess Hellens
Yeah.
00:37:48:24 - 00:37:58:18
Joyann Boyce
So the fact that your, thus you you're having people come on board from the community, they have a base understanding and then you're adding to that rather than completely from scratch.
00:37:58:20 - 00:38:21:05
Jess Hellens
Yeah. And it's quite hard at the moment in terms of like, you know, if Pauline is writing something for me, I have to not very often, but I might have to edit it. And I think sometimes when you do want to be like this inclusive space and I want to be kind, I want to treat everyone with respect of course. I'm always like, do you mind if I just change?
00:38:21:07 - 00:38:40:16
Jess Hellens
But I'm constant with what our tone of voice needs to be. And so that needs to be very clear. This, I think what I'm trying to get at is that even though they would have like a month, I love that I'm living in this scenario now, even though they would have this like month of getting to know the business and like that's, that affects change.
00:38:40:19 - 00:39:13:18
Jess Hellens
As well, right the way that we would do that, it's got to change from within. And it can't be like, yeah, we're going to change this over here, but we'll still function like a normal office will still function like the normal corporate, toxic, awful places like, no, I'd rather not have anything going on. They’ve become the issue. But then there's still levels to that, that I would still want to be seeing the creative and I'd still want to be involved in social media.
00:39:13:20 - 00:39:36:06
Jess Hellens
I don't want to hand all of that over because then it becomes something else. However, like maybe from all my lessons that I'm learning, maybe I create something new and that becomes like more of a team approach to a community or whatever. But as Wild as it is at the moment, I just love spending time like in Wild.
00:39:36:07 - 00:40:04:01
Jess Hellens
I, I created it because I had the issue of feeling alone. I now I, I've got like a load of lovely people around me who get what it's like to be a woman in business. But also, yeah, kind of has the same view of the world as me, not completely the same because that would be weird, but as in you know we don't have TERFs which is a bonus.
00:40:04:03 - 00:40:29:11
Jess Hellens
But yeah, I think it's same if you're going to scale the business you're going to bring people in, I would treat them just as I do with members as I talk a lot about what we're about and if someone doesn’t like that like then I'm happy to apply for a job and I would like to think that I'd end up surrounded myself with managers who really truly believe in Wild and in me.
00:40:29:11 - 00:40:41:19
Jess Hellens
I think that's the challenge I think you quite often have with team members, is if it's a personal brand and they believe in you and what you're trying to do.
00:40:41:19 - 00:40:43:09
Joyann Boyce
They can't market for it.
00:40:43:11 - 00:41:08:04
Jess Hellens
You're screwed because you can't trust them either. Like, you need someone to be like, why don't you ask Jess to do that? Or like, Jess would know the answer to that if they're like, you know, everyone in Wild and everyone that works in Wild would mention each other's name and in a room of opportunities. And that's the type of team that I would want to create as well.
00:41:08:04 - 00:41:15:09
Jess Hellens
Like this collaboration over competition cause I'm rubbish at, I'm not in competitive with myself.
00:41:15:11 - 00:41:23:10
Joyann Boyce
Well, I'm going to, I'm going to I'm going to shift that for a little, our game. We’re going to make, we’re going to make a campaign inclusive.
00:41:23:14 - 00:41:24:14
Jess Hellens
Okay.
00:41:24:16 - 00:41:38:05
Joyann Boyce
And now I'm thinking your favourite. I'm being very sarcastic right now because people who are listening are not looking at my face. Your favourite social platform, LinkedIn.
00:41:38:07 - 00:41:44:20
Jess Hellens
Oh, Joyann. Yeah, actually this is useful, because. Yeah, go on.
00:41:44:22 - 00:41:59:22
Joyann Boyce
Okay. Your favourite social platform LinkedIn wants to do a partnership campaign with Wild. And it has to incorporate both brand values and it has to give both vibes or you have the option to.
00:42:00:19 - 00:42:15:02
Joyann Boyce
Let's see, I'm trying to think of a completely. Well, I'll give you another Wild version and you have the option to launch Wild in Texas.
00:42:15:04 - 00:42:29:13
Jess Hellens
Okay, so I can choose either LinkedIn or Texas? I love, I love that you think I hate LinkedIn that much. And I do. I do. I'm tempted. I'm tempted by Texas.
00:42:30:13 - 00:42:32:16
Joyann Boyce
Have you been to Texas by the way? I just picked a random state in America.
00:42:32:18 - 00:42:36:23
Jess Hellens
Yeah, no, I think Queer Eye is filmed there.
00:42:37:04 - 00:42:41:08
Joyann Boyce
All of our education on Texas is based on Queer Eye, love it.
00:42:41:08 - 00:42:43:24
Joyann Boyce
you going Texas, or are you going LinkedIn?
00:42:44:01 - 00:43:04:07
Jess Hellens
LinkedIn, LinkedIn. Yeah, LinkedIn because that would be good for me. A challenge. It would be out of my comfort zone and it actually it would be really good for the business because it makes sense for me to be there. But I every, I'm getting a pain here from talking about it.
00:43:04:09 - 00:43:23:20
Joyann Boyce
Oh, gosh, Alright. So scenario LinkedIn has approached you and they're saying, hey, we want a brief to show how our partnership has come together like LinkedIn sponsored Wild and they want to they want to be like, yes, LinkedIn and Wild have come together we want a brief it can be I'll give you the option to do a newsletter any format you want or it can be video.
00:43:23:22 - 00:43:24:01
Jess Hellens
Okay.
00:43:24:04 - 00:43:28:14
Joyann Boyce
What, what, what are you pitching and how you make your LinkedIn feel more inclusive?
00:43:28:16 - 00:43:54:04
Jess Hellens
Yeah. So I think that. Oh God, all the ideas just want to burst out of my brain I can’t even talk. I would love LinkedIn to want to do a campaign with Wild. Even though I hate LinkedIn, I would absolutely love it because I'm not the only one that feels like this about LinkedIn and that is missing out on opportunities because LinkedIn feels like a corporate environment that we've escaped.
00:43:54:09 - 00:44:16:22
Jess Hellens
It just does feel like that. And everything that people tell me and talk to me about when we're talking about Linked, LinkedIn said that they say exactly the same to me, whether it just feels like a stuffy office full of awful people in suits that aren't listening to me, they were just talking about themselves. And let's be honest, that kind of is what LinkedIn is.
00:44:16:24 - 00:45:02:07
Jess Hellens
So what I would love to do, and if you're listening, this is my pitch to LinkedIn and Wild should work together to change the business landscape via the virtual online office, which is LinkedIn, and it is awful, but Wild will inject a vibrancy, creativity, a safe space. Somewhere to have fun and somewhere to talk about business without the fear of judgment because I think that's the main issue with LinkedIn is that people are terrified of saying what they think about themselves, their business, other businesses, because everybody judges everyone so much on their resume.
00:45:02:09 - 00:45:21:06
Jess Hellens
If you're going to talk about on Instagram, you know either someone’s going to scroll past because they can't be bothered or they've looked at the picture and they're not that bothered about reading. Whereas LinkedIn, you have to have this opinion. How about we forget about the opinions, we forget about the judgment, and we just have fun talking about ourselves without judgment.
00:45:21:08 - 00:45:29:11
Jess Hellens
Our businesses, celebrating how brilliant business can be if we just turn up as ourselves.
00:45:29:13 - 00:45:35:07
Joyann Boyce
Mic drop, I've imagined it. The virtually Wild office.
00:45:35:09 - 00:45:42:18
Jess Hellens
Way better than LinkedIn. Basically Wild is a better version of LinkedIn.
00:45:42:20 - 00:45:58:06
Joyann Boyce
We're not going to say that the virtually Wild office sponsored by LinkedIn, where mistakes are welcome we laugh, we smile, we turn up in our pyjamas. But we just, we get shit done when we feel like.
00:45:58:08 - 00:46:02:14
Jess Hellens
Yeah, we just completely ourselves however that is on that day.
00:46:02:16 - 00:46:19:15
Joyann Boyce
I was avoiding saying authentically sales will turn up as yourself because I was like, maybe that's leaning too much into the thingy voice but we can even add a tech element on it and be like virtually wild in VR or AR. One of the Rs.
00:46:19:17 - 00:46:25:09
Jess Hellens
Why have you suddenly turned into a advert?
00:46:25:11 - 00:46:28:20
Joyann Boyce
It’s my campaign voice, it’s when I start imagining it.
00:46:28:20 - 00:46:32:23
Jess Hellens
You sound so sultry.
00:46:33:00 - 00:46:36:00
Joyann Boyce
When I start imagining it, I literally start seeing it in my head.
00:46:36:06 - 00:46:38:05
Jess Hellens
World of VR.
00:46:38:07 - 00:46:45:03
Joyann Boyce
And I have imagined you walking in, the shot is on you and you're in a suit.
00:46:45:05 - 00:46:45:17
Jess Hellens
Right?
00:46:45:19 - 00:47:07:13
Joyann Boyce
All right. Your suit, you've got your glasses on and hair pinned back. Everything. And then you look to this dude, he's in a suit, he's grey, and then you spin back to camera. You roll your eyes. You rip the suit off and you kind of step in to the VR, AR space. Everyone's laughing.
00:47:07:15 - 00:47:30:07
Jess Hellens
There's comfy sofas. It feels like, like I'm rebranding at the moment. And the kind of brief that I’ve gone for is a modern day mad men but women are in charge because it needs to fill soft and smoky and comfortable but powerful and musky and like not blue and shiny and silver and white.
00:47:30:09 - 00:47:31:24
Joyann Boyce
That, all those colours are banned.
00:47:32:01 - 00:47:32:17
Jess Hellens
Yeah.
00:47:32:19 - 00:47:47:21
Joyann Boyce
So you step in and it's is soft, but there's the sprinkles of business everywhere. So there's like there's a screen and there's a spreadsheet on it, but people are laughing. Why is there a spreadsheet on the screen, they’re doing finance. And then there's a coffee machine.
00:47:48:19 - 00:47:51:04
Joyann Boyce
Sorry, I get really serious about my campaigns.
00:47:51:04 - 00:47:59:07
Jess Hellens
Sorry, I'm sorry, I'm just laughing. It’s the coffee. Is a coffee machine business to you?
00:47:59:09 - 00:48:00:14
Joyann Boyce
Yes.
00:48:00:16 - 00:48:01:22
Jess Hellens
Okay.
00:48:01:24 - 00:48:07:04
Joyann Boyce
Can you tell I've never worked in corporate? Coffee machine and a water cooler.
00:48:07:04 - 00:48:15:14
Jess Hellens
There’s no coffee machine in corporate, you get granulated bloody coffee and a kettle. Sorry. Go on.
00:48:15:20 - 00:48:30:08
Joyann Boyce
How far cosy do you want to go? Is there going to be a shot that pans on yoga in an office? Or are we not doing that?
00:48:30:10 - 00:48:39:15
Jess Hellens
Why? As in like, that's weird, no? Or as in like oh look, that’s how you can do. No.
00:48:39:17 - 00:48:42:13
Joyann Boyce
Okay, we'll cut the, we'll cut the yoga. The yoga is not included.
00:48:42:15 - 00:48:46:15
Jess Hellens
Because we're veering into leggings and lattes.
00:48:46:17 - 00:49:09:21
Joyann Boyce
See, it’s infiltrated my brain, I can't. See and that's where the coffee machine. So we're sticking with you roll your eyes to camera, but walk away from this dude rip off to see. Step into the wild virtual co-working space. Everything is bright, colourful, but people are working but smiling, but not cheesy smiling. There are people laughing and we pan to the border.
00:49:09:21 - 00:49:19:01
Joyann Boyce
We're like, what they laugh at? Thinking that they're just watching something funny, but it's actually like they're talking finance. They're talking, you know, there's a business element, but it's not serious.
00:49:19:03 - 00:49:21:05
Jess Hellens
Okay.
00:49:21:07 - 00:49:30:02
Joyann Boyce
And then we pull back out and across the screen it says something like, Working can be Wild. You don't have to do it alone.
00:49:30:04 - 00:49:33:08
Jess Hellens
Nice. Yeah. Love it.
00:49:33:10 - 00:49:42:22
Joyann Boyce
And obviously, we sprinkle in a diverse bunch of people that’s another element.
00:49:42:24 - 00:49:51:04
Jess Hellens
We represent who is actually a, this is what a CEO looks like. Anybody.
00:49:51:06 - 00:50:11:02
Joyann Boyce
Okay. I'm sorry with campaigns I do think of it as a sprinkle and sometimes people don't. They do. I like to start in the mindset of it being a sprinkle of people because it means that, you know, you might have a bunch of things versus the other ways, when it’s too rigid a call for people? They then go, oh shit, we need a Black person now.
00:50:11:02 - 00:50:13:13
Joyann Boyce
It's like, uh, that doesn't feel.
00:50:13:15 - 00:50:14:18
Jess Hellens
Yeah.
00:50:14:20 - 00:50:15:18
Joyann Boyce
Sprinkle feels a little bit chaotic.
00:50:15:18 - 00:50:33:17
Jess Hellens
There's a Black person, there’s someone with a hearing aid, there's a wheel chair. Yeah. Those normally the three aren't they? Yeah. no, I mean, I love it. There we go, LinkedIn, give me a call. I promise I'll start using you at some point.
00:50:33:19 - 00:50:54:21
Joyann Boyce
I love how this podcast is becoming a secret call out of all the jobs we want. Oh, thank you so much for joining me, Jess. This has been amazing. It's so beautiful to hear the intersections and how your content and marketing represents the community you've built. Let the people know where they can find you on the Internet.
00:50:55:06 - 00:51:24:13
Jess Hellens
Best place to go is on either the website which is Wild Coworking dot com or Instagram. Again, Wild Coworking. There I turn up as myself, obviously, as opposed to pretend me. But I'm there all the time on Instagram pretty much and the website is really a good place to just find out about all different aspects of Wild so like, membership but also the advanced business support.
00:51:24:15 - 00:51:31:13
Jess Hellens
Why I started it, about our members, all of that. Website is probably best I guess. Yeah.
00:51:31:15 - 00:51:43:06
Joyann Boyce
Fantastic. We'll have all those links in the description or wherever you're listening slash watching the podcast. Thank you so much for joining us and continue to make marketing inclusive.
