Ep 39: Scaling Inclusive Marketing to a Team of 600+ with Bianka Faustin
Shownotes
In this episode, Joyann is joined by Bianka Faustin and together they delve into scaling inclusive marketing. Their discussion includes valuable tips for working with marginalised communities and explores the nuances of engaging with Black target audiences.
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Transcript
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:25:19
Joyann Boyce
Welcome and welcome back to the Marketing Made Inclusive podcast. Oh my goodness. I know it hasn't been a gap for anyone on the podcast, but I have been away and my brain has exploded with excitement all in relation to America. And on this episode, I do have an American with me. I don’t even know if you like to be introduced as an American, but we will talk about it.
00:00:25:20 - 00:00:29:24
Bianka Faustin
I’ll take it. It's fine.
00:00:29:24 - 00:00:35:00
Joyann Boyce
But I have Bianka to on the podcast, I've never checked how to pronounce your last name, apologies.
00:00:35:02 - 00:00:45:04
Bianka Faustin
So I guess it depends on who you're talking to. My mother says Faustin You could say Faustin. It's fine, I take whichever. But thank you for asking.
00:00:45:10 - 00:00:53:04
Joyann Boyce
Wanted to make sure I checked. I always go back and forth about do you apologise for butchering it before you butcher it or do you just check life? And I'm.
00:00:53:19 - 00:01:02:20
Bianka Faustin
I think checking live is was fine. At least you asked versus just kind of going for it and working out.
00:01:02:20 - 00:01:25:16
Joyann Boyce
We've been talking, you’re tuning into the podcast that this is all you hear, but we've been talking for about an hour before this sort of range of things, but I do want to say Bianka, we met via LinkedIn and I was super excited to get your DM because you were the first person I saw in house that had inclusive marketing in that job title.
00:01:25:18 - 00:01:30:20
Joyann Boyce
So please let the people know a little bit about what you do and where you work.
00:01:30:22 - 00:01:57:04
Bianka Faustin
So I am currently in charge of inclusive marketing and engagement at Wiley. They’re a book publisher, mainly dealing with like periodicals and research. I have always been in marketing for the most part, and I've always kind of changed which direction I've gone in within marketing. Unofficially, I think when it came to work, I also always worked closely with HR.
00:01:57:04 - 00:02:23:24
Bianka Faustin
To kind of handle employee engagement and making sure that people kind of felt included in things and we weren't doing anything that was not appropriate when it came to cultural things. So I was just always unofficially connected to that. And then about four years ago it became official as me proposing this is what I think that we should do as a company.
00:02:23:24 - 00:02:46:03
Bianka Faustin
This is something that I think we should be, start paying attention to. I didn't want to go into the DE&I practice alone, so I still want to stay in marketing. So I think it would be like a nice way to connect the two without joining another or leaving another. And essentially you're, you're employing those like D&I practices but solely from a marketing lens.
00:02:46:03 - 00:02:50:09
Bianka Faustin
So this is what I've been doing for the past few years.
00:02:50:11 - 00:03:14:17
Joyann Boyce
That is amazing. That's so fascinating because I hear the story a lot of times when someone and I'm assuming you're not the only person of colour in the organisation because it's quite big, but when someone is the only, they get pulled into the D&I space and they lose the ability to do their job. But you proposed to them joining in what you did enjoy doing, I'm assuming as well, for free to your actual paid job.
00:03:14:19 - 00:03:16:19
Joyann Boyce
How did that conversation go?
00:03:16:21 - 00:03:47:15
Bianka Faustin
We were going through reorg at the time. It happens with every company like things shift. So you have to kind of like reorganise what everybody's doing. And I was on the journal side, so I was handling a lot of the events and the marketing for solely just like the research journals. So getting authors to say, hey, you know, publish your research with us and kind of going out with authors to help them launch their new journals and get people excited about it.
00:03:47:17 - 00:04:12:18
Bianka Faustin
So when we went through the reorg was a matter of like figuring out where to put me, and I had already started doing the work by like starting the ERG with another colleague of mine starting to chair the Black Employee Resource group and then thinking about different ways that we can help have them think about like recruitment and being a bit more proactive from a cultural standpoint versus reactive.
00:04:12:20 - 00:04:51:19
Bianka Faustin
And I don't believe at that time we did not have like a chief diversity officer yet, but there was like a manager who was looking after that stuff and I did not want to go into that space because I also figured D&I shouldn't exist within HR That's just my personal opinion on that. So I didn't want to go into the H.R. space, but then I was just like, well, I think that as marketers, if we look at this from like a brand perspective and what we put out, we should probably be including the D & I principles to the marketing work that we do, and we're currently not doing it.
00:04:51:21 - 00:05:00:08
Bianka Faustin
And I did see a post from a different company. It wasn’t inclusive marketing, but there were some things that they had listed were just like, I feel like I could apply this.
00:05:01:06 - 00:05:15:02
Bianka Faustin
To the current group that I'm going to be with and make sure that when it comes to like the stuff that we do, we're doing it in the most inclusive way as possible and not just like pushing out stuff, just cause.
00:05:15:10 - 00:05:29:22
Bianka Faustin
Big undertaking because it's not something that the marketing group had looked at, at all. And you're talking about like getting this together for about 600 marketers or so across the globe. So you kind of have to break it up in a way that's sustainable.
00:05:29:24 - 00:05:35:02
Joyann Boyce
Wait, wait the group, the team that you're in is 600 marketers.
00:05:35:04 - 00:05:43:17
Bianka Faustin
Yes. At the time when I started it was 600 marketers globally, and those are across different departments also.
00:05:43:19 - 00:06:00:23
Joyann Boyce
Oh my, so you come in with the whole kind of we need to take these principles and separate that from HR, apply it to that and then having to translate that into, for 600 people, first of all, is a feet in it’s own but different countries, I'm assuming languages as well.
00:06:01:00 - 00:06:24:17
Bianka Faustin
Right. So because, because, I know you're looking at like different countries, different languages like, yes, there had to be a way to make this sustainable. So I think we like phased it out and I say we because the person I was reporting to at the time, like she helped with kind of organising, like how, what's the best way for us to kind of start this.
00:06:24:19 - 00:06:43:19
Bianka Faustin
So I started with just like a trial of doing some like trainings with some people and going through some like audits and stuff. I believe that's the first time I connected with you. I was just like, I don't know if they even have like inclusive marketing agency. Is there anything? It's not something that I saw a lot of.
00:06:43:21 - 00:06:47:01
Bianka Faustin
So it's like me and one other person.
00:06:47:01 - 00:07:13:06
Bianka Faustin
There's like, there's not, there's no way that my self alone could get through to 600 marketers. And we're starting at the baseline of providing this level of education to get them to a point where they're culturally competent to start doing the work on their own so they don't have to rely on the one person and then also take into consideration where every demographic is from a starting point.
00:07:13:08 - 00:07:41:00
Bianka Faustin
So I started with the U.S. and the UK because they were the most closely aligned with where they are with doing the work, even though the U.S., I think, focused on it a lot more. The UK was still in a space where they were doing it too, so it wouldn't be like a shock or there wouldn't be some level of confusion when it comes to some of the things that were in alignment with what the I don't want to say struggles, but like.
00:07:41:08 - 00:07:42:10
Joyann Boyce
The reason, the why.
00:07:42:13 - 00:08:08:23
Bianka Faustin
Yeah, like where, where those things can exist. The U.S. and the UK were the most closely aligned. So we phase it out where we just started with that group and it's still a thing of doing that. The focus is there, but the messaging is put across, you know, board, across the board. But what the focus is and like we say, the APAC region race isn't going to be the thing.
00:08:09:00 - 00:08:11:08
Bianka Faustin
So it's like class.
00:08:11:10 - 00:08:13:11
Joyann Boyce
Oh, I was going to say gender.
00:08:13:13 - 00:08:40:08
Bianka Faustin
Or well, class and gender would be thing. It's the same if I was like, okay, like if we're, if we're focusing with our German group, like even pronouns and all that stuff was a little different at the time were like, so I just had to make sure that whatever we were doing, I was also just being mindful of where they are and trying to have an opportunity to partner with another group.
00:08:40:14 - 00:09:00:21
Bianka Faustin
There that can help with that. Which is another difficult thing too, because again, even finding an inclusive marketing agency here was enough of like, oh, I don't, I don't know. So trying to do that elsewhere, you know, became, became an issue. But and this is why we decided to like, phase it out.
00:09:00:23 - 00:09:29:05
Joyann Boyce
Okay, that makes sense. I'm curious to know then with Wiley being to me, kind of like academia focused company, which, academia is its own separate industry in and of itself. It's not really to consumer and it's not really business, a business. Sometimes you're pitching to people, which is what all marketing is. Just why because I guess you, yeah, why did you approach it?
00:09:29:05 - 00:09:35:11
Joyann Boyce
Because you're just you're going after professors and professors are whatever they are or whoever they are.
00:09:35:13 - 00:10:06:16
Bianka Faustin
So it's definitely not just professors. So when you think about, when you think about like the, the research side of business, because you're talking about like books, you're talking about authors, you're talking about, and when you're talking about authors that like, spans across, you know, just the institution of thinking like professors, you're thinking about students, researchers. The customer bases is pretty broad, and it's not solely like professors.
00:10:06:16 - 00:10:37:00
Bianka Faustin
So when you have any campaigns that are meant to go out to that wide group, there's different age ranges and there's different from a cultural standpoint, you have a different, you have a different community based on, depending on where you’re, where you are. So let's say if you have a campaign that's going out to the nursing group or neurology or chemistry or engineering, there's different groups that exist in there.
00:10:37:00 - 00:10:52:22
Bianka Faustin
And when you think about specifically, let's say STEM, there's disparities as to who's, who's the, the main person that people would think when they think engineering, who that is versus who they're not representing. So it's kind of like a.
00:10:53:09 - 00:11:22:06
Bianka Faustin
It's a, there's a duality in to like what you're trying to accomplish there. So you do want to make sure that you're representing the people that do exist there that may not be represented, but you also want to kind of like expand people's thought process into what does that mean when I'm doing some type of campaign that's geared towards engineering or that's geared towards STEM as a whole and not having only be the thing of like, so this is the group that's usually in STEM.
00:11:22:08 - 00:11:46:00
Bianka Faustin
So that's why we are going include in the website or that's why I'm going to include in the landing page, or that's why I'm going include the email blasts. You want to be mindful of the language that you're using if you're trying to be inclusive, the visual story that you're trying to tell when you're trying to be inclusive, and that doesn't mean like you're just like, I need to make sure every campaign has one of each, because then that becomes inauthentic.
00:11:46:02 - 00:11:54:09
Bianka Faustin
But you just want to make sure that historically, who's ever had that platform all the time. Like, you're just not repeating that.
00:11:55:23 - 00:12:30:04
Bianka Faustin
I don’t take issue in creating like, if there's a platform and you see like within engineering, you have white males and Asian males, let's say, who are the two that have kind of been the ones leading in that area. That doesn't mean that you never include them in a campaign and I think sometimes people have taken that the wrong way. But when you do a panel, maybe you reach out to some other people that you haven't thought about reaching out to so that there could be that representation could exist there.
00:12:30:06 - 00:12:39:03
Bianka Faustin
When you build out a campaign, think about like visually, who you want to include in that. So it's not always the same people.
00:12:39:05 - 00:13:05:02
Joyann Boyce
On that note of not just plucking people, because I mentioned that to start a podcast, I recently came back from America and I did find the campaigns there seems more representative. But on that element of they had one of every thing. So how do you approach that in a big organisation? Because I'm assuming you have to get approval and signoff, you have to source images or hire models.
00:13:05:04 - 00:13:10:24
Joyann Boyce
What is the practical process behind doing that as much as you can share?
00:13:11:01 - 00:13:49:06
Bianka Faustin
Well, I think, I think the first part of it, because I don't think starting something like this, you just like go right into, okay, I'm going to start working with the campaigns team on this. I think if you want something to be done right, you maybe want to start with like the source. So if I go to the campaigns and say, like, here, here's how I want everyone to like, do this going forward, but then some of the material that they're working with isn’t inclusive or accessible, then I'm, I'm kind of like cutting and making like a shortcut to get to the thing.
00:13:49:06 - 00:14:15:17
Bianka Faustin
And that doesn't change anything long term. That might be more of a short term fix. So for me, I think it was a matter of like working with the brand team and also figuring out a way that there could be education to provide to team members so that they feel more empowered to make those decisions. We already had a great like brand kit in place and a guide, but it was just kind of like going in and like tweaking that.
00:14:15:19 - 00:14:45:23
Bianka Faustin
So this is why, like the audit was done, like having an audit on the website, having an audit on the brand tools because this is what the campaign team is using as a reference, as a guide to create their campaigns as well. And if there's any like things that that was more of like a strategic thing or like a one off project, like that's when I would consult with the group about things that are like, if you're telling a story, don't do the thing where it's like, here's the American dream story.
00:14:46:03 - 00:15:09:19
Bianka Faustin
I have to hear about all of your struggles first and then how you overcame all of the struggles. Like that's a story that's being told like time and time again. And it's also not necessarily a story that's focused on the person as a, as a human in their journey. You're kind of just like telling that's not a false tale, but it's almost stereotypical that that's, that's the story that we strive to hear.
00:15:09:19 - 00:15:18:24
Bianka Faustin
And like, this is what it means, because then if it doesn't sound the way that you want, it's kind of like, well, how can we like jeuje this up a little bit? Like, how can we like, how can we add a.
00:15:19:01 - 00:15:19:06
Joyann Boyce
Make it exciting.
00:15:19:06 - 00:15:42:11
Bianka Faustin
Little flavour to it so it seems more exciting. Where it's just like maybe the story should be more focused on the person and not so much on their accomplishments, if that makes sense. So that's how you're like representing the person and telling their story in a more authentic way instead of saying, yeah, but we need that extra thing.
00:15:42:13 - 00:16:06:08
Bianka Faustin
I'm not saying to tell a boring story, but it's just a matter of like being authentic and not using it in the sense of if it's a Black person, like you always have to tell that same story of like, I was here and I had this huge struggle and, and there's nothing wrong with that. I don't want to say that as if that's a bad thing to tell their story, because that is, that is someone's story.
00:16:06:08 - 00:16:28:17
Bianka Faustin
It's just not the only story that's being told, because that's how you start putting various groups into buckets and saying like, this is how you are. And instead that phrasing of like Black people aren't a monolith, like people are have multi dimensions and it shouldn't just be one group that's allowed to express themselves in all the dimensions that exist that to be allotted to everyone else too.
00:16:28:19 - 00:16:50:22
Bianka Faustin
And I think that's the, that's the whole point. When you're talking about being inclusive, it doesn't mean including every single person. It's just telling multiple stories so that representation happens and there's no possible way for it to happen for every single person all at once. So you just want to make sure when you're taking a step back and looking at what you've put out as a whole.
00:16:50:24 - 00:17:12:14
Bianka Faustin
Are you telling diverse stories? Are you are you making sure when you're telling stories about various groups and identities that you're telling it in a way that includes like intersectionality in there? It's not just one dimensional. It's not like, here's a doctor and this is a female doctor, and then we're done.
00:17:12:16 - 00:17:17:00
Joyann Boyce
And then that's it. And you have to add female doctor in the copy just to make sure it's apparent.
00:17:17:02 - 00:17:48:02
Bianka Faustin
Like there's, there's layers to it and everyone isn't always going to be satisfied because language is also changing all the time. People are, are recognising different things all the time. So something that was okay to say or use five years ago may not be okay to use now. I think that you kind of have to meet people where they are to a degree and just work with what you have there to kind of get them to think of things differently.
00:17:48:04 - 00:17:56:06
Joyann Boyce
So you mentioned the change and I'm thinking back, so you've been in marketing from undergrad all the way through.
00:17:56:11 - 00:17:57:19
Bianka Faustin
Yes.
00:17:57:21 - 00:18:19:15
Joyann Boyce
From what you studied, because I am a self-taught marketer, so a lot of it I'm used to learning on the fly with everything. Like probably two years ago, I still don't know I’m 100% sure what SEO is. But I yeah, I learned on the fly when I need it. But from what you learned, how has how have you seen marketing changed throughout the years?
00:18:19:21 - 00:18:24:14
Bianka Faustin
I honestly think the foundation, like the four P's don't ask me to.
00:18:24:16 - 00:18:25:09
Bianka Faustin
I think price.
00:18:25:10 - 00:18:31:20
Joyann Boyce
Price, position, place. No. I'm making things up. I know price products.
00:18:32:00 - 00:18:51:15
Bianka Faustin
Something like. It’s, like, oh, how do you have this person on here, they don't know. I'll remember another time. This is making me nervous, but I think that those things still exist. Sometimes there's like stuff that's being added to it, but those things still exist. I think what's changed and what continues to change and will always change is, is.
00:18:53:05 - 00:19:22:07
Bianka Faustin
How maybe the customers receive things. I think marketers are always changing based on, oh, I hate to say what the trend is, but a lot of times that's what it is. You're changing with that and unfortunately it becomes a trend because of marketing. So it's, marketing is the same like you're trying to. It's almost like at the core of it your understanding people.
00:19:22:15 - 00:19:46:12
Bianka Faustin
And how to best get that person to like want what it is that you're offering. And before it was like you don't, you don't. You convince people what they want. You don't wait for them to tell you, convince them of what they want. So sometimes that meant, you know, this exclusive thing, I need to have that thing because it's exclusive.
00:19:46:14 - 00:19:55:20
Bianka Faustin
And now with this, this new generation that's coming in, it's just like that doesn't work anymore. They're telling you what they want and how they want it.
00:19:55:22 - 00:19:56:14
Joyann Boyce
Yep, loudly.
00:19:56:14 - 00:20:22:05
Bianka Faustin
Listening. So that shift needs to happen with marketing. Now it's just like, okay, let me start listening to our customers to then essentially tell them what they want or need. But I'm now listening to this, so I don't know that like much has change outside of the, maybe the approach has slightly changed, but it's kind of like that dynamic of before I'm going to tell you.
00:20:22:05 - 00:20:42:11
Bianka Faustin
And now it's like, okay, let me listen to them, because you have more people caring about like cause marketing or like the brands. Like what, what, what did they do versus, if you like, is this a good company? You know, like, that's not something that people really cared about before.
00:20:42:13 - 00:21:09:08
Joyann Boyce
How would you advise a marketer in a big team to start pulling that through? Because you mentioned that you started with the branding team and that makes sense. You got them to really look at the principles. The guidelines is going to be distributed to the 600 other teams and people out there, but say you are the one with, you're seeing the narrative, you see in the shift and you're like, No, we need to talk about what we're doing and the cause.
00:21:09:10 - 00:21:31:21
Joyann Boyce
And it's an industry that it's not as apparent, like it's not. I again, I'm very naive when Wiley. So it's like, you know, how are you saving trees? Let's be cynical. How are you, how, if you B-Corp like, how do you advise a marketer to start approaching that within a big organisation?
00:21:31:23 - 00:21:55:10
Bianka Faustin
Well, I think in, this, this isn't necessarily Wiley specific. I think when we're talking before I said sometimes it's easier for a brand that's like direct to consumer or the consumer to say like, I'm sticking with this particular brand because the brand side of it is like in your face. Everybody does some level of branding for your, for your business so people know who you are.
00:21:55:12 - 00:22:36:09
Bianka Faustin
But some other companies, again, I find that retailers, a lot of times, or maybe somebody that offers a service like software or anything like that, like that's something that can also be used directly to the consumer, like we using Zoom teams, that's me using that directly. So I think when it comes to kind of having, having that stuff embedded in a larger corporation, I think you still have to think about what would be considered, I guess, corporate marketing, which is like more focusing on your brand because you still have one, you have a name, you have a name that's out there for people to know.
00:22:36:09 - 00:23:05:21
Bianka Faustin
Like you focus on your brand and like what you want that messaging to be externally so that people are kind of coming along with you on that journey for whatever changes that you're making. So if there's been a shift in your company where it's just like, okay, now we're focusing more on, let's say we're doing the work to we're doing like ESG work, let's say, and that S side of ESG that kind of gets ignored a lot of times.
00:23:05:23 - 00:23:30:13
Bianka Faustin
That's some, we're going to put that forward more. So we're going to showcase like these are the vendors that we're working with. We're going to showcase from an environmental side where, how we're going to try to get to like net zero by x, you know, 2025 or something like that, whatever, that the data is there. That's where you can start like talking about these things and showcasing some of the things that you're doing.
00:23:30:15 - 00:24:11:06
Bianka Faustin
I don't know what other way you would do that to make the shift with that If you're not talking about it, if you're actually making these changes, you never want to make anything up. But if you're actually doing these things and making these changes, you start talking about it. If you want people to view you more as a family focused company or if you know you're more geared to eco friendly things and distributors, whatever it is that you're going to do, clearly you want to communicate that and make sure that your brand is like following that pattern of, okay, now I see this shift based off of how they're talking, their tone of voice,
00:24:11:06 - 00:24:34:03
Bianka Faustin
the language that they're using, the images that we're using, like how are we telling the story of this particular brand? What do we want this to represent? And that's, that's external. I think it should also be done internally. So as you're doing this external thing, you also want to focus on something like employer branding internally, because internally you have a customer to your employees.
00:24:34:05 - 00:24:55:13
Bianka Faustin
So when you think about certain brands that really kind of have a strong, you know, there's a strong brand affinity, I guess with them, you kind of have to look at what they're doing externally and internally to get everybody internally on board to essentially, maybe I shouldn't use the phrase, but drink the Kool-Aid because I found out with that where that comes from and I was like oh.
00:24:55:13 - 00:24:57:01
Bianka Faustin
And also.
00:24:59:11 - 00:25:09:09
Joyann Boyce
So. I don’t if I mentioned to you, but we have a language dictionary, everything is everything is screwed up. Everything. So you go back far enough, every phrase.
00:25:09:15 - 00:25:33:20
Bianka Faustin
It definitely is. So essentially, like that's how you get people on board to like, buy into what you're doing. And sometimes I think people will focus on the external, but then they don't focus on the stuff internally to like drive that same message internally and not just speak it, but show it be actions based internally so that people feel that, okay, this is what this means.
00:25:33:21 - 00:25:37:19
Bianka Faustin
Like I kind of sometimes use like REI or Patagonia as.
00:25:37:19 - 00:25:38:24
Joyann Boyce
I was about to ask.
00:25:39:04 - 00:26:05:21
Bianka Faustin
Their retailers, I get it, but it's still even Google like, you, people will say whatever about Google, but then people are still working for them and they have like high employee ratings. Now, if you're thinking about like, what is the ratings mean, like doesn't really mean anything. That's a different story. But they, there's, there's a difference between how they go about treating employees at least to get them on board.
00:26:05:23 - 00:26:29:02
Bianka Faustin
Now long term in any company, once you're in there, if you start like figuring things out and seeing it differently, that's different. But I use Patagonia as an example because I like the brand. I always have a great experience when I go from a customer service perspective. I've talked to people who work there and they I don't really hear anything that's negative about it.
00:26:29:08 - 00:26:44:03
Bianka Faustin
And that kind of trickles down from, you know, the top down. If you're listening to your employees and you're saying something that's true and you're not just trying to provide lip service, like people can read through that, especially as marketers.
00:26:44:03 - 00:26:51:15
Joyann Boyce
Identify. Marketing to marketers, which is what essentially I do, it’s an interesting experience.
00:26:53:20 - 00:27:07:07
Joyann Boyce
Because not only are we prone to be more alert to ads, we're also more suspicious of ads. But at the same time we get suscepted by ads, not necessarily because we want the thing, but because we’re like that’s a good ad, I'm going to click on it.
00:27:07:09 - 00:27:08:07
Bianka Faustin
Yeah.
00:27:08:09 - 00:27:19:22
Joyann Boyce
Marketing to market, anywho, but you mentioned Patagonia and referring back to something that I discovered about you. You are the marketing director for Black people who hike.
00:27:19:24 - 00:27:20:24
Bianka Faustin
Yes.
00:27:21:01 - 00:27:26:17
Joyann Boyce
Tell me a little bit about that, because that is very different to the 9 to 5 world that you're in.
00:27:26:19 - 00:27:50:12
Bianka Faustin
It is. So I think sometimes and I don't say this in a way where it's anything like speaking poorly about where I currently work, like the paid work. But I think sometimes when it comes to people who like, want to find their like, passion or purpose and you align that with the work that you do, I think it's a great thing if somebody finds that in the work that they do.
00:27:50:12 - 00:28:18:09
Bianka Faustin
And also it's okay to be realistic about why you're working because you know. Bills. So for me, I had just started to get into going outside. It was like during the pandemic. So just like everybody else, you couldn't really do anything but be outside. I always like water, but I started hiking and I use air quotes for hiking because it was like more walking on a, you know a hill.
00:28:19:15 - 00:28:37:10
Bianka Faustin
It was walking. But I would do it a lot. I ended up getting a dog and I would just like, take her out everywhere. She's sitting right here, like curled up, sleeping. But I did that a lot. And I, I did notice a lot of times when I would go out, I didn't really see a tonne of Black people.
00:28:37:12 - 00:28:57:17
Bianka Faustin
So I had followed like another group and I was on Instagram with following different groups. And then I found Black People Who Hike and I like their page and I saw that they were looking for a marketing person as a volunteer. So I was like, I'm in marketing, like I’ll volunteer my time. They're based in S. Lewis, I'm on the East Coast, I'm in New Jersey.
00:28:57:19 - 00:28:59:11
Bianka Faustin
So it was.
00:28:59:13 - 00:29:04:08
Bianka Faustin
I interviewed with them. They're in the Midwest, I'm on the East Coast.
00:29:04:18 - 00:29:06:19
Joyann Boyce
Learning my directions.
00:29:06:21 - 00:29:33:13
Bianka Faustin
So I interviewed with them and I ended up working with them in a different capacity. But then there were some changes and now I'm working with them on their, their marketing stuff. And last year we were able to get a grant from the national parks and we did a national park tour. We visited five different parks and it was just a group of like 20 to 30 Black people in those spaces.
00:29:33:13 - 00:29:50:20
Bianka Faustin
And sometimes that was their first time hiking and for some that was their first time hiking and such a large group of Black people. And I think that for the ones that I went on because I didn't go in every single park, you were in charge of like different parks. I went to Acadia. It was on the East Coast. That was like the easiest.
00:29:50:20 - 00:29:51:20
Bianka Faustin
It's in Maine.
00:29:51:22 - 00:29:52:15
Bianka Faustin
Okay.
00:29:52:17 - 00:30:03:21
Bianka Faustin
Really beautiful during the fall. But it was just it was, it was nice. And I think I get excited sometimes when I see just big Black people enjoying themselves because.
00:30:05:22 - 00:30:06:20
Joyann Boyce
It's amazing.
00:30:06:22 - 00:30:31:00
Bianka Faustin
Sometimes it's just you're in a space where, especially being in a corporate environment like you don't see it all the time. Even when it started the ERG with my colleague, I honestly was just like, I didn't know all of you were here. It was like 25 people and they were like, I've never seen you smile this big because it was like, it's just it's nice to have some form of community somewhere where you don't have it.
00:30:31:00 - 00:30:58:24
Bianka Faustin
And for most of my career, being in corporate America, I've usually been like the one or one of few. And when I say there's maybe like two other people there, so to be in a space where, oh, we were all spread out, but now that we're virtual, we're kind of like forced to be in this space where now we can connect with people, maybe not in the same space, like physically, but we were kind of like spread out all over.
00:30:59:01 - 00:31:32:18
Bianka Faustin
So I think with Black people, like that was just another thing where it's like, okay, let me offer my assistance in any way that I can, whether that's any form of marketing, events, strategy, whatever it is, to get that done. And I think it's been a beautiful thing. And I think the founder, she just again wants to, to just get more education and awareness for Black people and other people of colour to get out and enjoy nature as it's meant to be enjoyed.
00:31:34:23 - 00:31:56:00
Joyann Boyce
I have a not a tricky question, but an interesting one, I think it’s interesting, we’ll, we’ll see. I feel like it's very intentional calling it Black people who hike because it's going up against a stereotype of oh, Black people don't do X. And when I say X, if you're listening and you're not a Black person, probably a joke your uncle would make.
00:31:56:00 - 00:32:27:01
Joyann Boyce
Like Black people don't swim. They don't do this and do that. And I've had marketers approached me in the past where I know they haven't said it, but they are thinking Black people don't do X and our, where we market whatever it is, outdoor has been one of, outdoor and luxury have been the two types of marketers who've outrightly said to me, in a way, I had a luxury marketer say, oh, our client said no point putting Black people in our campaign because they didn't buy our stuff.
00:32:27:03 - 00:32:52:16
Joyann Boyce
I was like oh wow, you client was brave. But anywho. So thinking from a marketer who might work in one of these fields where stereotypically there's a stereotype that Black people don't do that, how would you advise them to approach marketing to Black people and making them more inclusive and representing more Black people?
00:32:52:18 - 00:32:56:02
Bianka Faustin
Include them. I find sometimes the most simplest answer is the thing that you should.
00:32:57:01 - 00:33:09:22
Bianka Faustin
Include them. So here's a thing like if somebody's saying, oh, Black people don't, or like we're not meant to do, or we don't feel, if the Black person is doing it, then we do it.
00:33:10:24 - 00:33:32:12
Bianka Faustin
So it's the same thing where we were talking about when this wasn't being required, ever talking about how groups and stuff were created. You to create a sense of community. How Black people here, specifically Black Americans for the U.S. like created these, these pockets of, well, if it's not here for us, then we need to do it on our own.
00:33:32:14 - 00:33:55:17
Bianka Faustin
And that was out of necessity. So it's the same thing. If, if I want to try something and it's something that I'm going to try alone, I'm going to do it, and eventually somebody else is going to see me do it and then they're going to do it, and then it becomes a thing where you have a group like this where now there's a bunch of people who do it.
00:33:55:19 - 00:33:56:17
Joyann Boyce
Okay. So.
00:33:56:19 - 00:34:26:00
Bianka Faustin
One of the, one of the places where we went to one of the, one of the tours, one of the they weren't a ,ranger, but they were somebody that was like they had their own group and they were active in the outdoor community. And he wanted to hike with us, but he couldn't, he had a prior engagement. But he was just like, I grew up here and I've just never been around this many Black people hiking and he was Black himself.
00:34:26:02 - 00:34:42:06
Bianka Faustin
And that's understandable because it's Maine, there aren’t a tonne of Black people there. So when you get into a space and you see all these people, you know, doing this thing that you do to, to a level, there is some level of comfort there because it's just like, now I don't have to feel like I'm by myself.
00:34:42:06 - 00:35:01:19
Bianka Faustin
For some people it doesn't matter and that's fine. And for other people they do want that sense of community. And that's okay too. Like if I tried snowboarding for the first time, I know a lot of times when I see snowboarding, I don't see a bunch of people who look like me. But I ended up finding a group on Instagram of Black snowboarders.
00:35:01:21 - 00:35:11:07
Joyann Boyce
Okay, so say the person is not Black. You're saying find the group because the group exists. Black people who do X, whatever it is, you know.
00:35:11:11 - 00:35:14:00
Bianka Faustin
And if they don't exist, create it.
00:35:14:02 - 00:35:15:04
Joyann Boyce
And if they’re not a Black person can they?
00:35:15:04 - 00:35:18:08
Bianka Faustin
Build it. Absolutely.
00:35:18:10 - 00:35:19:00
Bianka Faustin
If they're.
00:35:21:22 - 00:35:22:09
Bianka Faustin
There's in it. There, there’s, there’s a.
00:35:22:09 - 00:35:24:01
Joyann Boyce
What if they’re doing it for marketing purposes?
00:35:24:06 - 00:35:25:01
Bianka Faustin
What do you mean?
00:35:25:03 - 00:35:38:24
Joyann Boyce
So your brand that you have worked with, say, Patagonia was like, we want to showcase Black people hiking Mt. Everest. So Patagonia is going to create Black people hike Mount Everest. And the person organising that run it is not a Black person.
00:35:38:24 - 00:35:47:06
Bianka Faustin
The person who is organising the group and running the group is not a Black person. Mmm.
00:35:47:08 - 00:36:07:12
Joyann Boyce
That's what I'm saying, because this is a, this is the situation is that they want content. I do, by the way, I do not know Patagonia. I do not know what they’re doing, disclaimer, but they want the content, they want the imagery right. Black people doing whatever activity that they're brand associated with.
00:36:07:14 - 00:36:11:09
Bianka Faustin
Okay. I guarantee you they can find a Black person who did it.
00:36:11:19 - 00:36:36:16
Bianka Faustin
It may not be a group, I guarantee you'll find a where, everywhere. And it's with any other group. It's with any group. Just because I think that it's almost like a lot of these outdoor sports and a lot of these outdoor activities are geared towards white men think that's, that's what they are. That's the demographic for the outdoors.
00:36:36:18 - 00:37:04:07
Bianka Faustin
So just because that's the majority, I don't think that that means that the one or two don't exist because they do. It's the same, like I said, following Zeb Powell, he's a Black snowboarder and following him found another Black snowboarder, and then I found another one. So it's, it's the same thing just because it's not like a cluster, that doesn't mean that they don't exist.
00:37:04:09 - 00:37:27:14
Bianka Faustin
They do. It's the same thing. If I wanted to if I was a ballerina and I wanted to, to be, you know, a ballerina and I wanted to find some sense of community like it exists, it may not be prominent. You have to do some digging sometimes, but they exist. If I'm into anime and I do want to find that community of Black people who are into anime, you'll find it.
00:37:27:16 - 00:37:30:08
Bianka Faustin
And that's with every group you'll find it.
00:37:30:10 - 00:37:37:18
Joyann Boyce
They find the person. How do you recommend approaching? I need to take another, what’s outdoor brand.
00:37:37:20 - 00:37:38:19
Bianka Faustin
REI.
00:37:38:21 - 00:37:46:03
Joyann Boyce
REI. How would you recommend REI approaching a Black snowboarder to be part of a campaign?
00:37:46:05 - 00:38:19:13
Bianka Faustin
I probably shouldn't use REI because they've already done this. I can say. For instance, Subaru partnered with Black people like they kind of wanted to. They're the outdoor car brand. So and it could be as small as, because we've done it ourselves from Wiley, we have people like scouring the internet, like looking at pages and all this other stuff and you kind of just approach them with what your story is and what you're trying to accomplish.
00:38:19:15 - 00:38:33:06
Bianka Faustin
It's, you know, we love what you're doing and we want to highlight you want to give you a platform. We want to like, partner with you. This is your story. We just want to help amplify your story.
00:38:33:08 - 00:38:50:23
Joyann Boyce
And as a big brand, you can do that. It's always interesting when I hear I think I have an aversion to platform or highlighting because the other side of my brain goes, oh, they're not going to pay. And I don't know if that's because I've heard too many stories that I have.
00:38:51:00 - 00:38:58:03
Bianka Faustin
Well, you I think you also have to know as a as a smaller business organisation, whatever, you also need to know.
00:38:58:24 - 00:39:25:00
Bianka Faustin
What like, your wants and needs are. So if your sole purpose is to get awareness and you're not concerned about money, like your money comes in the form of use, then go ahead and do it. If there's something that requires some level of sponsorship, like see if they'll do that. So I do understand because I think sometimes when people have asked, you know, somebody to do something and a lot of times it's like, will they do it for free?
00:39:25:00 - 00:39:37:21
Bianka Faustin
Maybe budgets just high, whatever. I'm always very conscious of asking Black people to do something for free, and maybe I don't do that with other groups.
00:39:40:06 - 00:39:57:19
Bianka Faustin
But, I will say I'm very, I'm very conscious about like asking Black people, as you said, for free and even probably yeah, I'm very conscious about that. And I think when it comes to like people of colour in general, I think I am very conscious about like asking you to do something for free. But of course I'm Black. So clearly and.
00:39:57:19 - 00:40:00:12
Bianka Faustin
Yeah, there's even the positioning.
00:40:00:14 - 00:40:01:06
Bianka Faustin
I don't know if I’m comfortable with that.
00:40:02:24 - 00:40:31:24
Joyann Boyce
This positioning of being a marketer and having to ask for, cause we, that's, especially influence marketing. All we do is ask, all you do is negotiate and requests and try and get the best deal for your client, whichever that may be. But it's interesting to have that coded into your experience of I know what society is. So even though this is business, there's also a values element to it.
00:40:32:01 - 00:40:39:06
Bianka Faustin
There's, I mean, you know, a lot of times when these brands are trying to do a partnership and get benefits and they're not doing it just cause.
00:40:41:13 - 00:41:03:04
Bianka Faustin
It’s a business so it benefits them. And I think they're looking at it from the perspective of like it can benefit both of us. And you always want to make sure you're mindful of who you're partnering with, just like I'm sure they're mindful of who they're partnering with. So you want to do your research just the same and not just accept, you know, somebody wants to do this thing for us.
00:41:03:04 - 00:41:29:02
Bianka Faustin
Like what does that mean? If they have photography, how are they using it? You know, if it's video footage, how are they using it? Who has access to it, how long do they have access to it for? Can we use it? Like it's just, they're things that you need to ask yourself. But I think if, and that's usually if there's like some type of video, you know, element to it or image element to it.
00:41:29:04 - 00:41:49:18
Bianka Faustin
But if it's like we want to, we want to do a partnership with you, and that comes in the form of just sponsoring you, you still do your research, but they, they've now sponsored, you know, a trip or they've sponsor materials or they've sponsored whichever. So, you know, you just want to make sure that you're doing your work when it comes to somebody approaching you.
00:41:49:20 - 00:42:14:00
Bianka Faustin
But for a brand, approaching another group and wanting to say, we're going to like, offer you this platform through for you to then be amplified, sure, you're going to go in there with a caution, But I think it's like as long as you recognise that this brand makes sense for us and there is going to be some level of like expansion, like audience expansion or anything like that for us.
00:42:14:02 - 00:42:30:10
Bianka Faustin
And also we can get, you know, some type of sponsorship out of it. I think, I think that's a good thing. I think that, you know, doing the research on Subaru, it's a car company, but they're known for the outdoor car company, the people, they're great. And they did the thing.
00:42:30:10 - 00:42:35:07
Joyann Boyce
That’s the connection I was looking for because I was just like, surely if you hike, you don't want to hike in a car.
00:42:35:09 - 00:43:12:05
Bianka Faustin
I guess they're, they're an outdoor, they're known for like their outdoor cars. You have to get to a place, you know, like you have to get there. And a lot of times some of these places that you don't realise, like they're actually hard to get to, it's not even flying in like it becomes your, you fly in to this place that may be an hour and a half or so from the actual place that you're going to so, people are comfortable with them and like creating that partnership because I think that, you know, to me they've been nothing but great so far.
00:43:12:07 - 00:43:19:08
Bianka Faustin
And there's also, they also, like recently created a commercial and I don't know if we get to that part if I’m skipping ahead.
00:43:21:18 - 00:43:27:22
Bianka Faustin
They created a commercial that I thought I was like, see, this is an example of, it's a simple.
00:43:27:24 - 00:43:31:05
Joyann Boyce
Break it down. Tell me about the commercial. We'll go find the link and put it in.
00:43:31:05 - 00:43:48:13
Bianka Faustin
Okay. So it's I think it's called a Beautiful Silence and it's super commercial and for the most part, it's completely quiet. I don't know if you watched The Last of US on HBO, but there is a Black child actor who is deaf.
00:43:48:15 - 00:43:50:08
Joyann Boyce
Yeah, I've seen.
00:43:50:10 - 00:44:14:15
Bianka Faustin
And he was the star of commercials. So it's him and his father. They're like driving through the park, they're splashes, there's noise, there's all this other stuff, and then they kind of go silent. And he, he asks them like, are we lost? And he's like, no. And then they get to the top and it's a waterfall, and they don't focus on the fact that he is deaf.
00:44:14:17 - 00:44:25:10
Bianka Faustin
They don't really focus on the fact that they're Black and that's not to say that that's an issue. It's just them doing something and that's it.
00:44:25:23 - 00:44:36:09
Joyann Boyce
I do love, I love the ones where the inclusivity is the oh, yeah and bit, not the because bit.
00:44:36:09 - 00:45:06:12
Bianka Faustin
Like they're just, it's not, because I don't, I don't know for myself that I would like if you just put that focus on the thing versus me as a person because I'm a person first and then all these other identities make me who I am as a person. But that shouldn't be the focus. So if you're trying to be inclusive, that shouldn't be the sole focus.
00:45:06:14 - 00:45:33:19
Bianka Faustin
If you're having a campaign that resonates with black people, it I'm not saying you shouldn't include their Blackness. I'm saying the way that you go about doing it. So that it doesn't seem stereotypical. So it doesn't seem like a checkbox activity and I think even there's been studies and people appreciating, especially if there's somebody with a disability, they appreciate the fact that they're being included in the commercial for just being existing.
00:45:33:21 - 00:45:48:02
Bianka Faustin
My disability is not this inspirational story because I think that can come off as condescending sometimes if you're such an inspiration and for somebody who has a disability, they're just like, I'm such an inspiration for a living.
00:45:48:04 - 00:45:50:02
Bianka Faustin
But what do you mean?
00:45:50:04 - 00:46:18:23
Bianka Faustin
So now you've turned this into, I'm trying to compliment you, but you've turned this into this thing where you're complimenting me on my disability and it's almost as if you're trying say there's something wrong and you did all this stuff in spite of everything that is wrong with you. So I feel like when it comes to somebody and I think Nike did a nice commercial too, where I forgot the name of it, I'll have to remember it.
00:46:18:23 - 00:46:33:24
Bianka Faustin
But they did a nice commercial where it was. It was Nike Asia and it was like they usually give like a, a gift. I don't know if it's always money, so I’m not as well versed in it. But they usually give a gift for like the Chinese New Year.
00:46:34:05 - 00:46:35:12
Joyann Boyce
Oh yeah the red envelope.
00:46:35:14 - 00:47:01:11
Bianka Faustin
Yes and it's this I think it's her granddaughter I think she, she was like running away from it. Like she doesn't want to take it. And it's just like this whole journey. But it's there. There's so many, like small cultural aspects that are like real, very small details that I wouldn't know because that's not my culture. But somebody else brought this to my attention.
00:47:01:13 - 00:47:16:14
Bianka Faustin
And then they include the, you know, Nike logo or whatever at the end. So you kind of don't know what this is about, but you always see that she has sneakers on because she's like running after her trying to give her this envelope and it goes on for years. So it's like you see how you're incorporating your brand.
00:47:16:16 - 00:47:25:11
Bianka Faustin
You're also being authentic. You could probably tell an Asian person was in the room when it came to campaign and that was it.
00:47:25:13 - 00:47:33:04
Joyann Boyce
So just two things. One, my new love and hate about some commercials is the not knowing what it's for.
00:47:33:06 - 00:47:34:14
Bianka Faustin
I understand that.
00:47:34:16 - 00:47:39:16
Joyann Boyce
I love it. But then I get to the end and I'm like, that was a commercial for Nike, what?
00:47:39:18 - 00:48:01:20
Bianka Faustin
But if you pay attention because she didn't have the sneakers on before and to me the sneakers stand out. So if you're paying attention, you can kind of tell like what it's going to be because then they start this chasing thing. So it makes sense. Even if you didn't know it was for Nike, it makes sense because it's like, oh, she was running that whole time and she's wearing these sneakers.
00:48:01:20 - 00:48:04:24
Bianka Faustin
Just like chased her around or whatever. So I get it, I get it.
00:48:05:01 - 00:48:05:16
Joyann Boyce
Sounded really good.
00:48:06:15 - 00:48:32:20
Bianka Faustin
Understand like, yeah, that didn't make sense at all. Or there I think it was. Greetings, the greetings card people this commercial had to do with like infertility. I didn't know what it was about initially. So they show this woman and she's with her husband. It's actually really sad. They show this woman she's with her husband and you kind of you after you see the experience with her husband.
00:48:33:01 - 00:48:55:05
Bianka Faustin
Her husband, you see that. Okay. I understand what this is about. I don't know what it's for. So she's trying try and trying and you see her crying and he's like, you know, it'll happen. It'll happen. And then she goes to a friend's baby shower and everybody's all happy opening the gifts and all the other stuff, and she's smiling.
00:48:55:05 - 00:49:23:14
Bianka Faustin
But you could still she, she's a little sad. A friend sees her, invites her out to lunch and gives her a card that says something like, you know, I don't know something about like, I can't remember the exact verbiage, but it's something along the lines of like, you know, sometimes we're all going through stuff, but like, you know, know that I'm here for you or whatever, and she gives her a hug or whatever and then ends with like American greetings, like when you don't know the words to say or something like that. A bit.
00:49:23:20 - 00:49:29:09
Bianka Faustin
Cheesy. But I think it was nicely done. The way that I'm explaining it sounds cheesy, but I think it was nicely done. If you were to watch it.
00:49:29:13 - 00:49:35:17
Joyann Boyce
We will find a link and put it in the show notes. But also this might be the difference between American ads and British.
00:49:35:17 - 00:49:37:10
Bianka Faustin
Absolutely. Absolutely.
00:49:37:10 - 00:49:40:19
Joyann Boyce
I don't. I'm just like, sorry, what? I would be so mad.
00:49:40:23 - 00:50:09:18
Bianka Faustin
Absolutely. But if you think about it, for some people, especially for who this works for, because you have to think about, let's say, hate using the phrase love languages. But for some people you have to understand like what their thing is. So that could have been your thing. And I get the cheese factor or whatever. But think about it, if I'm a person who's going through something and I get a nice card or flowers, sometimes that means something to me.
00:50:09:20 - 00:50:11:23
Bianka Faustin
Hug may mean something to me.
00:50:12:00 - 00:50:25:00
Joyann Boyce
You just give me another thought. We've had so many conversations but you just give me another one. I need to look into it because if I'm thinking it but it feels like an obvious thing, marketing segmentation based on love language, that must be a thing, right?
00:50:25:02 - 00:50:27:02
Bianka Faustin
I'm wondering if it is.
00:50:27:02 - 00:50:27:22
Joyann Boyce
Because that would be.
00:50:29:07 - 00:50:38:01
Bianka Faustin
I assume, if they haven't thought about this you’re onto something, I assume if it were, it would be for certain industry.
00:50:38:03 - 00:50:43:20
Joyann Boyce
Yeah, it couldn't. It could not. You can't do compliments with, you know, healthcare just.
00:50:43:22 - 00:50:47:22
Bianka Faustin
No, but like if I’m, let's say.
00:50:47:22 - 00:50:58:12
Bianka Faustin
These people decided to do that, then they understand the concept of if this person likes gifts or if this person likes personal, if they like physical touch.
00:50:59:14 - 00:51:06:12
Bianka Faustin
Then maybe this would work for like a massage chain or something like that.
00:51:09:01 - 00:51:09:15
Joyann Boyce
Oh my God. That is fascinating.
00:51:09:21 - 00:51:13:04
Bianka Faustin
Or, or maybe.
00:51:13:06 - 00:51:19:16
Bianka Faustin
Will work for Home Depot if they're about like action as act of service, I don't know.
00:51:25:08 - 00:51:26:16
Bianka Faustin
Do you have a version of Home Depot?
00:51:26:16 - 00:51:28:22
Joyann Boyce
Yeah, we have a version, it’s B&Q.
00:51:28:24 - 00:51:40:14
Bianka Faustin
Okay. I've always asked people if they have a version of X, but I think it's one of those things where sometimes when it comes to marketing, you're playing on the psychology of.
00:51:41:20 - 00:52:02:13
Bianka Faustin
People and you want to evoke some type of emotion because a lot of times people are emotional. So unfortunately, that's kind of like the thing that you do, and I think it could work in a positive way. If you want to be more authentic. And I think the call right now is for brands to be more authentic and be more representative.
00:52:02:24 - 00:52:05:14
Bianka Faustin
Of like the audiences that they serve.
00:52:05:16 - 00:52:30:07
Joyann Boyce
Yes And my new thing now, on top of the emotional manipulation is also bias manipulation, because going back to what we mentioned about you might hear a stereotype about Black people not hiking. So if you're going to create a campaign to anti that stereotype, touching on what you said, don't just chuck a Black person in there, make the story around not their Blackness, but that journey into hiking.
00:52:30:09 - 00:52:43:18
Joyann Boyce
And I think there's an element of inclusive marketing now where you have to be aware of what the bias and what the stereotype and what the negative thing is and play with it, manipulate it to get the story across.
00:52:43:20 - 00:52:44:20
Bianka Faustin
Right.
00:52:44:22 - 00:53:11:05
Joyann Boyce
Because I can see, oh, moving onto, we cannot talk for ten years, but we've had, we're going to have you back to do another episode. But that brings me on to you. Create an inclusive campaign. So money, no object. You have a one minute YouTube slot to create a video campaign. And I do. I want to do hiking, but I want to give you a counter.
00:53:11:07 - 00:53:27:10
Joyann Boyce
Oh, hiking or swimming. And you have to make it inclusive and say the hiking one is for a shoe hiking. The swimming one is for towels.
00:53:27:12 - 00:53:31:04
Bianka Faustin
Interesting. Okay.
00:53:31:06 - 00:53:31:21
Joyann Boyce
People get wet they need towels.
00:53:31:21 - 00:53:35:23
Bianka Faustin
Okay.
00:53:36:00 - 00:53:47:00
Joyann Boyce
Well, how are you making, you have your choice of either one which one are you going to thing? And then how you make it inclusive?
00:53:47:02 - 00:53:53:23
Bianka Faustin
Outside of, outside of just including Black people doing the thing. Like how am I making this inclusive?
00:53:54:00 - 00:53:55:16
Joyann Boyce
What's the story you're putting in?
00:53:55:16 - 00:53:58:20
Bianka Faustin
Okay, I think.
00:53:58:22 - 00:54:06:10
Bianka Faustin
I think for hiking the story could be what, let's say, for instance, Black people who hike is.
00:54:06:23 - 00:54:45:00
Bianka Faustin
That could be the story. I did this thing because of this. I saw other people on this journey. I saw other people, but none of them really looked like me. So I wanted to create a community of Black hikers so that they feel included. And one of the things that we do is offer education and have as a beginner, it's, it's important for you to have like the right gear insert keen, which is a hiking shoe brand or Columbia, you know, and then you incorporate Columbia in there like, I like these hiking boots because they're comfortable for a beginner.
00:54:45:00 - 00:55:02:16
Bianka Faustin
Like you have to worry about blisters and all the other stuff and it's great. And then they showcase like people hiking, they get close up of the feet and then at the end there's just this community of Black people hiking and laughing and all the other stuff. Maybe they have their t shirt if you partner with them, you know, Columbia, reach out.
00:55:02:16 - 00:55:05:02
Bianka Faustin
I'm just saying.
00:55:05:10 - 00:55:17:18
Bianka Faustin
And for swimming, I'm going to challenge the towel and say the focus and this is where the focus is but it's not a swim cap as a Black person.
00:55:17:20 - 00:55:19:03
Joyann Boyce
But then you step it into product redesign.
00:55:19:03 - 00:55:29:16
Bianka Faustin
Not products redesign to. Like I'm saying that there's a need here, Black people swim. There's actually a group called Black People Swim.
00:55:31:02 - 00:56:05:00
Bianka Faustin
They won an award, they swim and sometimes the blocker for some people there’s a relationship that Black women have with their hair that's a thing. So if I'm concerned about my hair and there isn't a product for my hair that can sometimes be a barrier for me getting into this space. So there's a twofold thing happening here when it comes to the swimming thing, yes, I'm creating a product, but let's say the product exists.
00:56:05:00 - 00:56:23:08
Bianka Faustin
Let's say you have swims, but you don't have swim caps that are specific for Black people. And you talk about as a brand how you want to be more inclusive. Now, not only is your commercial more inclusive commercial, but now you've created a product that is inclusive and those exist too. I'm just saying.
00:56:23:15 - 00:56:47:10
Joyann Boyce
They do exist. I think they just got approved for the Olympics a year or two ago, but I'm happy I'm seeing both because I'm a visual, visual thinker. But the more emotional one, the more story based one is the swimming one. Because you can start with, cause we're recording this towards the end of the year, probably they're release this year, but everyone makes a commitment to do something.
00:56:47:12 - 00:57:08:01
Joyann Boyce
So you start with someone a little snippet of their life, you know, working all the time and they're like trying to do all these things. They get out of a pool. Black woman. hair’s wet and they're happy they’re and they're, you know, ecstatic that they just swam a lap or whatever you'll see in their motion. But then they're trying to dry their hair and then they end up being late for work.
00:57:08:03 - 00:57:17:05
Joyann Boyce
And then you see and slowly these things happen and then they stop swimming. Then they're gifted a swim cap, towel set.
00:57:17:07 - 00:57:18:00
Bianka Faustin
Okay.
00:57:18:02 - 00:57:28:22
Joyann Boyce
Okay. Microfibre towel. Okay. Because microfiber is good for Black hair, microfiber towel and then swimming cap that is able to hold their hair.
00:57:28:22 - 00:57:29:19
Bianka Faustin
Got it. Okay.
00:57:29:21 - 00:57:45:20
Joyann Boyce
Big hair. And then you see the joy come back and then making it to time on work. They're making it's time on things. They're not associating, after stepping away, they don’t, oh, cheesy line as well they dove back in.
00:57:45:22 - 00:57:48:12
Bianka Faustin
So it's I.
00:57:48:18 - 00:58:04:18
Bianka Faustin
I counter that, I counter that, and say to not focus so much, I get the hair is a focus, that's a thing, that's a very thing, but if you take out all of the if you take out the full journey I don't have a cap. You could start off.
00:58:05:18 - 00:58:19:09
Bianka Faustin
To make it shorter because you want your commercials to be under a minute. Make it shorter. She's swimming. She takes off the cap fro is still intact. Yeah, because they have this product.
00:58:19:15 - 00:58:21:15
Joyann Boyce
Yeah. Skip it, skip the pain.
00:58:21:17 - 00:58:39:22
Bianka Faustin
And now I have this towel that's like a t shirt towel, whatever. Microfiber. That's good for my hair. Dab my little face off. My hair is fine because I wore this cap and now I go to work not having to worry about a thing. So that tells me you're off the bat. These things are available. I could jump something.
00:58:40:00 - 00:58:57:17
Bianka Faustin
I don't need to hear her backstory. I just know that these are available for me and that gives me a sense of like, this was made for me. They've kept me in mind. It's not meant that's solely not meant for anybody else. This is meant for me.
00:58:57:19 - 00:59:01:08
Joyann Boyce
Start with, you know what.
00:59:01:10 - 00:59:04:04
Bianka Faustin
With black people, swim.
00:59:04:06 - 00:59:15:07
Joyann Boyce
Just saying out there if anyone wants to connect. But I’m glad you’re challenging me because sometimes you do fall into the habit of having to sell the pain, to make the joy look joyful.
00:59:15:09 - 00:59:15:21
Bianka Faustin
Exactly.
00:59:15:22 - 00:59:21:05
Joyann Boyce
You could start with ironically, ironically because my name is Joyann, but you can start with the joy.
00:59:21:07 - 00:59:45:00
Bianka Faustin
You can start with it because again, you want to get that message across and not lean and this could also be a cultural thing. Because naturally, it's, it's going to read differently. Things are going to read differently in American culture versus British culture. I see this sometimes with movies. I watch a lot of Korean horror. And sometimes when the movie's ending, sometimes I'm just like, What is this?
00:59:45:00 - 01:00:11:14
Bianka Faustin
What's happening? I don't, I don't get this, like, why are there, like, violins and stuff? But that might be something specific to the culture that resonates with them. Where I'm just like all this, like, you're just supposed to end it. They die, that's it. So it's, it could be cultural, but yes, I think sometimes there is a thing of what we discussed before about not needing me to tell you all of the struggles that I go with.
01:00:11:14 - 01:00:21:16
Bianka Faustin
I just want me you to give me the thing. It's the same thing sometimes where people were they were tired of the, D&I conversations.
01:00:22:13 - 01:00:40:02
Bianka Faustin
They were tired of unconscious bias training, they were just over it. And it was just like D&I fatigue. And towards the end in questioning people, it's just like, I just want you to do the thing. I want to be able to come to work. Work.
01:00:41:10 - 01:00:44:16
Bianka Faustin
Not deal with microaggressions, get my pay check. That's what I.
01:00:44:16 - 01:00:46:09
Bianka Faustin
Want to do.
01:00:46:11 - 01:01:08:08
Bianka Faustin
So sometimes I feel like the, the best route when it comes to commercials, sometimes it's just telling me, like, this is what it is. You just solved in 30 seconds. You just solved an issue that I was not aware this product even existed or I was not aware that this product existed to products and, and community.
01:01:08:10 - 01:01:24:19
Joyann Boyce
To products in the community. I like that. I like that. So that leads me to my final question. And it's a new one, but it's because you're in the space I like, I wanna ask you this question it what do you think the future of inclusive marketing is?
01:01:24:21 - 01:01:49:06
Bianka Faustin
I think the future of inclusive marketing is that it's not, there isn't inclusive marketing, like it just becomes a thing where you no longer say inclusive marketing. You just say marketing. And this is an aspect of it that exists from the start, the same way that we were just talking about. How is marketing evolved?
01:01:50:05 - 01:02:21:05
Bianka Faustin
This is how I'd like to see marketing. This is part of the principles of marketing. So if you have the six principles of inclusive marketing, I think Microsoft has created theirs. Google had created their all in document with their own principles. I think if you maybe want to either add to the four ps of marketing or change them to six principles within marketing, that's just something that's embedded in there because it all still matters.
01:02:21:07 - 01:02:32:18
Bianka Faustin
It's still people, it's still a part of your product, It's still, you know, a part of like how you communicate something to bring awareness around it. What are the, I need to look up the 4 ps so I have them.
01:02:35:07 - 01:02:41:05
Bianka Faustin
I know it's like product, price, people and something else. And I'm like drawing a blank. So it's just like, no, I need to get this.
01:02:41:07 - 01:02:48:04
Joyann Boyce
Sometimes they have seven ps as well. Promotion, promotion. There's no people.
01:02:48:06 - 01:02:50:01
Bianka Faustin
There isn’t?
01:02:50:06 - 01:02:50:13
Joyann Boyce
What I have.
01:02:50:13 - 01:02:59:14
Bianka Faustin
Got added people might have been added because sometimes the numbers switch up, but I could’ve sworn people was a part of it. But I could be wrong.
01:03:01:07 - 01:03:25:08
Bianka Faustin
People sitting there listening are like, how are you marketing if you don't know the 4ps of marketing. It's okay, we're all going to be okay. So I think that as part of that, when you're talking about promotion like that should be embedded in there. So whether or not is for a piece of marketing or if it's the seven principles of marketing or whatever they want to call it, because we all love a label, let's not deny this.
01:03:25:17 - 01:03:26:15
Joyann Boyce
We’re marketers. We love a label.
01:03:26:15 - 01:03:28:11
Bianka Faustin
We all love a label.
01:03:28:13 - 01:03:40:08
Bianka Faustin
I think that that should be embedded in there, and that's what I'd like to see for the future of inclusive marketing. I'd just like that to be embedded in the marketing so you don't have to separate them.
01:03:40:10 - 01:03:50:08
Joyann Boyce
So if you're a betting person, what, what, how, what's the timeline? What's the timeline for us not, our job titles not being a thing.
01:03:50:10 - 01:04:05:17
Bianka Faustin
I think as this new generation comes in, those things will be embedded into marketing. So I'd say maybe like 20, 15, 20 years.
01:04:05:19 - 01:04:10:01
Joyann Boyce
So Gen Z or Gen Alpha?
01:04:10:03 - 01:04:14:20
Bianka Faustin
Yeah. Because they'll be native to it, they'll be native to be inclusive.
01:04:14:22 - 01:04:20:07
Joyann Boyce
So you need to start changing things.
01:04:20:09 - 01:04:26:01
Bianka Faustin
It'll just be in there. So when you ask 15 years later if.
01:04:26:02 - 01:04:28:18
Bianka Faustin
You're doing this podcast.
01:04:28:20 - 01:04:34:14
Bianka Faustin
What changes have you seen, that's probably going to be one of the changes that exist.
01:04:34:16 - 01:04:38:10
Joyann Boyce
Gonna be like marketing was shit in the 2010s.
01:04:38:11 - 01:04:58:21
Bianka Faustin
Like, oh, you used to do this thing. We weren't very inclusive. Now it's going to just, it's just going to be a part of it. Representation, inclusive, inclusion, providing a sense of belonging, you know, accessibility, all those are going to be born into marketing and it doesn't have to be something that we work very hard to implement.
01:04:58:23 - 01:05:02:24
Joyann Boyce
Okay, So generation Alpha and generation Beta, apparently.
01:05:03:01 - 01:05:06:22
Bianka Faustin
Beta. Okay.
01:05:06:22 - 01:05:12:05
Joyann Boyce
Yeah, so generation beta going to be born in 2025.
01:05:12:07 - 01:05:12:20
Bianka Faustin
Okay.
01:05:12:24 - 01:05:15:19
Joyann Boyce
So they'll be adults working in marketing and like.
01:05:15:21 - 01:05:34:21
Bianka Faustin
Right. It's going to start with this Gen Z right now. So as the younger bit of Gen Z, as they start becoming the ones who are in charge of branding, marketing, anything under marketing because events, all that stuff is like under there, they're going to be the ones that start that shift.
01:05:34:23 - 01:05:43:13
Joyann Boyce
Okay, I'm excited. I hope to not be still working at that time. I hope to be, you know, waving a cap to society. I hope to be a millionaire. I’m not gonna lie.
01:05:43:15 - 01:05:44:22
Bianka Faustin
I made.
01:05:44:24 - 01:05:48:22
Bianka Faustin
It's. I guess it's what's needed so everybody can relax when they're.
01:05:49:02 - 01:05:50:13
Bianka Faustin
Like, oh, money.
01:05:50:15 - 01:05:53:11
Bianka Faustin
I think Cap, I think money should cap at a certain point.
01:05:53:11 - 01:05:55:17
Bianka Faustin
But people need it.
01:05:55:17 - 01:06:02:24
Joyann Boyce
I'm happy being a millionaire, not billionaire. You know, let's, let's not, you know, go too hard on it. Anywho.
01:06:03:01 - 01:06:05:01
Bianka Faustin
That's, that's for another conversation around billionaires.
01:06:06:19 - 01:06:14:14
Joyann Boyce
And ethics, I mean re there billionaire marketers, I guess Amazon is just marketing, is it? No.
01:06:14:16 - 01:06:15:05
Bianka Faustin
No.
01:06:15:07 - 01:06:19:02
Bianka Faustin
I think Amazon is more about like customer service.
01:06:19:08 - 01:06:25:09
Joyann Boyce
Yeah. I don't know any billionaire marketers then. That's a whole other conversation.
01:06:25:11 - 01:06:29:15
Bianka Faustin
Maybe they started out as marketers.
01:06:29:17 - 01:06:35:22
Joyann Boyce
Yeah, let the people know where they can find you on the internet.
01:06:35:24 - 01:07:00:12
Bianka Faustin
They can find me online at DCB65 on Instagram. I don't talk about anything regarding inclusive marketing and I do not post a lot, but I mainly use Instagram to follow other people and kind of educate myself and create different communities and stuff. And that's pretty much the only place that I'm on outside of like LinkedIn.
01:07:00:14 - 01:07:03:12
Joyann Boyce
I was going to say, everyone leaves LinkedIn off like it's not.
01:07:03:13 - 01:07:20:18
Bianka Faustin
I don't know, it's just my name on LinkedIn. Bianka Faustin. I'm fine with however you want to pronounce it, but you can find me on LinkedIn there and feel free to connect if you like what I was saying during this recording, or if you have opinions of what I’ve said during this recording.
01:07:20:18 - 01:07:32:06
Joyann Boyce
Trust me, we have many more there’s five other conversations we need to have on top of this. We'll definitely have you back. Than you so much for joining me on the Marketing Made Inclusive podcast.
01:07:32:08 - 01:07:33:20
Bianka Faustin
Thank you for having me.
01:07:33:22 - 01:07:43:15
Bianka Faustin
Yeah, thank you for having me. This was fun. And I know we've been talking for a while, so I'm looking forward to the next chat. And if it's a group of us, even better.
01:07:43:17 - 01:07:51:02
Joyann Boyce
I think I want to do. I’m meant to be wrapping up, but now I want to do across America.
01:07:51:04 - 01:07:51:22
Bianka Faustin
Okay.
01:07:51:24 - 01:08:00:16
Joyann Boyce
I'm curious to know different because I know a couple of inclusive marketers now from different areas. And I'm curious to know the approaches within states.
01:08:00:18 - 01:08:01:23
Bianka Faustin
Because.
01:08:02:00 - 01:08:12:22
Joyann Boyce
I know within Europe the approaches differ based on two things, whether the language is gendered or not.
01:08:12:24 - 01:08:13:15
Bianka Faustin
Okay.
01:08:13:17 - 01:08:25:06
Joyann Boyce
Because the argument is very much on the language. And from discussions I've had with people who do marketing within Europe, they also very much differ on population.
01:08:25:08 - 01:08:33:04
Bianka Faustin
Right. This would be for North America? Because then you have Canada.
01:08:39:06 - 01:08:59:09
Joyann Boyce
Thank you so much for joining me for the Marketing Made Inclusive podcast. All the links mentioned will have them in the show notes and you can myself Joyann Boyce on all social networks. That's J O Y A N N B O Y C E. Tune in next week on all things marketing Made Inclusive.
