EP 5: Body Positivity In Marketing
Shownotes
In this episode, Joyann Boyce and Arima team member Serena Gainda discuss the body positivity movement and its effects on marketing, including brands that have embraced inclusion and brands that may have missed the mark.
Useful links:
https://www.arimacompany.com/blog/every-body-is-beautiful-body-positivity-in-marketing
https://bodyliberationphotos.com/body-liberation-stock-body-fat-positive-diverse-photos/
https://www.ae.com/intl/en/c/aerie/cat4840006
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1740144518305448?via%3Dihub#sec0065
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9K5IS-inHs&ab_channel=JAX
You can find Joyann at: https://twitter.com/joyannboyce
Transcript
Joyann Boyce 0:02
Welcome to the Marketing Made Inclusive podcast. I am your host Joyann Boyce. On this podcast, we're going to discuss all things inclusive marketing, from persona creation campaigns and even some of the mishaps we see in the media tune in and let me know your thoughts and how we can make inclusive marketing the industry standard.
Joyann Boyce 0:23
Welcome back to the Marketing Made Inclusive podcast. I am your host, Joyann Boyce. And we're joined by our amazing team member who you've heard before Serena.
Serena Gainda 0:34
Hi.
Joyann Boyce 0:36
Today, we're going to be talking about all things body positivity in marketing. Now, this has been an interesting one for the team altogether because there's a balancing act when you think about body positivity between how much of a personal aspect it is and how much can actually be represented in marketing. I know for me the first time I started thinking about it and how not, controversial lack of a better word. But I remember when haicheng was H&M or Nike probably Nike had a mannequin. And it was of someone have a fuller figure. And the internet was just all over the place. They were like, oh my goodness, how could you do that? But from a marketing perspective, like that makes sense. Everyone was calling it work culture. But I'm like you want to sell clothes to people who are going to work out, people who want to change their body, be it for good, bad or want to get fit come in all shapes and sizes. So why not have a mannequin that you know, actually looks at individuals that buy your clothing? What were your thoughts? When it when did it first hit you about body positivity and marketing, Serena?
Serena Gainda 1:47
Yeah, when it first hit me, I guess. It's quite funny, actually. I was watching dr you remeber Gok Wan. Yeah and watching his show and how he was helping women feel more comfortable in their bodies and confident and showing them clothes that, you know, made them feel really good. And it was at that point that I thought, why don't the mannequins and shops kind of reflect that especially I think the average size in the UK for a woman is size 16. But then all the clothes that we're seeing are on, are on really dead mannequins. And even when you look at adverts or you know, or campaigns or anything, the women that are wearing the clothes often look a certain way, which is you know, very slim, usually white.
Joyann Boyce 2:36
Yeah, and usually blonde, blonde, thin and white it tends to be the situation. We talked about it in the period campaigns, a few episodes back of like, when you think of the model for a campaign you think of I can't remember all their names, but Heidi Klum, Twiggy, or the super skinny and times have changed. People are very aware that that's not a representation of society, like you said, size 16 is the average size and I feel like posts, post the pandemic and post COVID-19 size 16 is no longer average size, probably more 18 to be honest, because we had two years of not moving. And if you're trying to reach audience, it's an interesting balance when it's the marketing context that, because you have the whole Do you want to give them an aspirational, quote unquote, image to go for? Or something that's relatable to them? Now, what are your thoughts on the aspirational aspect?
Serena Gainda 3:28
Gosh, I mean, I It's difficult, I think a lot of the time when they have this, you know, aspirational image, it's not achievable for most people. And all it does is result in insecurities and body issues. And, you know, I mean, you've only got to look at Victoria's Secret and I remember she's a song that came out recently about how you know, this, this woman felt that oh, Victoria's Secret cause a lot of body issues for her. And yeah, I think the ideal is just not achievable for most people. And who's to say anyway, that that is perfection or that is what we should be striving for.
Joyann Boyce 4:11
Exactly. Because when it comes to marketing, we can literally create whoever the persona is that we want. So this whole idea of there being an ideal in society versus wanting to evoke an emotion in someone just doesn't make sense when it comes to like, advertising that and it's funny, you mentioned the Victoria's Secret aspect because I was speaking to someone and there was a Vogue photoshoot that came out a few months ago, that had a whole bunch of dark skinned models and everyone was super excited. And I just turned to this person and went, oh, they've done the Victoria's Secret runway trope where they're super, super dark skin, majority of them are shorter, have bald heads, are really short and it's just, there's no intersectionality with that representation even when it comes to plus size and fuller fogures, women. And I'm, I'm being very specific by saying women as well, because I think I could only possibly think of when it comes to men and advertising, it goes to two avenues, either the fit, you know, six pack, model man or the dad bod, but both feel like, and I'm speaking from a point of bias, I feel like I get both equally, I feel like I've seen as much dad bods as I have seen six pack bods. But when it comes to women in advertising, I can only think of a few campaigns and they were probably special campaigns that had fuller figured or plus size women. Yeah, it's so interesting when you look at that intersectionality
Serena Gainda 5:41
Yeah, definitely.
Joyann Boyce 5:43
How do you feel the representation been, like through the research that you've done, what have you found in terms of plus size and full figured?
Serena Gainda 5:50
Um, so there are definitely brands that, you know, trying to include more full figured women and, you know, show a variety of bodies. So I think we were looking at aerie. So they were, so basically 35 women were shown six ads from airy and when asked about how these ads made them feel, and they they are more inclusive, they've got, you know, women from, women of different shapes and sizes. And the result was that most women felt happier about their bodies and felt that the models were relatable. So they, they're getting this positive association with brand. And they even said that they'd be more likely to support the company. So there are brands out there that are doing this, and they are seeing positive results, and they are getting loyalty from customers as well for being more authentic. And for being more relatable.
Joyann Boyce 6:46
I definitely am seeing more than, one of my favourite recent brands is Yitty by Lizzo. And one of the things I noticed Lizzo has done is that when you look at the sizing, it starts at 6x and then you have to scroll down for extra small. And I'm just like, duh, it shouldn't be and it goes back to so many things that I'm saying either be alphabetical or something. There's just some logic and aspect if your target marketing is full of figure individuals, why are you putting them to the bottom of the site selection list? And even that-
Serena Gainda 7:24
Exactly.
Joyann Boyce 7:25
Thinking could just, it changes the way that they think about marketing, because when they're putting together their campaigns, everything is like, oh, we start here. It's not that we don't include super small, extra small, we cater for that. But our priority is X, our priority is these individuals. And yeah, I really found that interesting how Lizzo and Yitty have incorporated that brand value throughout.
Serena Gainda 7:51
Yeah, it's such I mean, when you think about it, it's such an obvious shift to make. But you know, it's not something that's been done really. So yeah, that's really, really interesting.
Joyann Boyce 8:01
It's fascinating how far we've come because I also remember, I didn't if you had the experience, you talked about Gok Wan, I don't know if I'm pronouncing that correctly, apologies if I haven't. But I also remember the days of America's Next Top Model.
Serena Gainda 8:16
Oh, wow.
Joyann Boyce 8:18
Yes, yes. And I feel like that show kind of encapsulates what the marketing industry was focused on at the time.
Serena Gainda 8:30
Yes.
Joyann Boyce 8:31
And how far we have come to where we can now look back at it and this is what happens whenever we look back at campaigns. Like, if we look back, when we looked back at period campaigns and we look back, we can see our development, I don't think history should allow us when we're looking back at practices of marketing in the past, to really bash people but just to celebrate that now we know better.
Serena Gainda 8:54
Exactly. Yes, I do think back to America's next top module and you always see clips on YouTube, you know, people discussing what was going on in that episode and how shocking it is now but you know, just little things like there was one model that was a UK size 10 and you know, they were labelling her plus size at the time and also, not, kind of being negative about it, you know, we don't really know if she can succeed as a model because she's, you know, not as thin as the others she's plus size but she's not that plus size, half her body seems to be plus size and half of body seems to be, you know, thin and what they wanted and it was really strange to see them kind of tear this apart for having a normal body.
Joyann Boyce 9:45
And even that whole debate that as a model, she wouldn't get work because she was a size 10 is such a long thing because then you think about the production and the clothing and what they're creating and the sizes that they created in bulk. And then you have this whole demand of people wanting bigger sizes, but you're saying that it's not going to sell, but you haven't put the effort into even market it, to know that it's, it's so many layers to it. And but using hindsight and what we have now and that that brands like area and beauty that are out there, selling and creating profit from marketing to full figured, plus size individuals, that actually reminds me, I feel like there's a shift about to happen with terminology and language in general. Because I remember when we were looking at the blog before we recorded, I was just like, I don't even remember if people still use the term plus size. And how that's going to because plus size is still suggesting that there's a normal size and this is on top of it.
Serena Gainda 10:52
Yeah. Yeah.
Joyann Boyce 10:54
And if a brand is trying to be fully size inclusive, there should be an there probably is better language out there for them to include everyone rather than making it seem like you're an add on.
Serena Gainda 11:08
Yeah, it's true. That word plus size, it doesn't feel entirely comfortable. You're right. It just makes it sound like yeah, something additional to the norm. So yeah.
Joyann Boyce 11:22
It's interesting, because how, again, language. imagery, the fact they were call, they were calling a size 10 Personal America's Next Top Model plus size and how you can go from size 10 to size 18. And that apparently is plus size. So what's past 18? If everyone's average is 16, what is the rest? But it's interesting, the language that brands use when they're referring to their customers that I do you feel that that is a shift towards using terminology that has been previously used in a negative light.
Serena Gainda 11:55
Yeah.
Joyann Boyce 11:56
If your audience embraces it. So like, the era of, the word fat has gone through many different phases and being spelled in many different ways, but I feel like the error of that is coming back. Well, I feel it's coming back from my experience on TikTok. I used to have you seen any brands been using it or referring to, even influences?
Serena Gainda 12:18
Um, no, I have. I mean, there's a lot more positivity around, you know, having more weight and things like that I've seen where, you know, there's this celebration of your body. But not particularly, you know, not with brands, I've not seen anyone really use the word fat in branding so far. But that could just be because I've not been exposed to it. I mean, who knows?
Joyann Boyce 12:48
The algorithms have a lot of power they do. But I've definitely seen more influencers using it. When they're doing sponsored post. I've seen influencers speak about when brands of send them stuff, and they say, Oh, this is fat girl friendly, or curvy body friendly, and incorporating it into how they're talking about the brand, rather than plus size. But the other aspects that we put together in our blog about body positivity was just doing it without it be in a fanfare, fanfare, that word. Implementing it without it being a whole campaign. I've definitely seen that where they're like, Oh, we're going to do plus size now. Oh, you should have done it at the start, no?
Serena Gainda 13:36
Exactly. Yeah, it shouldn't be this big, major thing. And also, it's about being authentic to you, we get some brands that, you know, will obviously start saying or we're introducing plus size clothing, but then don't actually stock them. So again, I mean, going back to Victoria's Secret, but there was a whole, you know, thing where they were promoting lingerie for plus size women, but when you went to go find them, to go buy them, they weren't really available. So yeah, it's, it's strange. I mean, you have to also be authentic and your brand actually has to serve the people that you're now promoting to.
Joyann Boyce 14:23
And work with them as well. An influencer I know, I don't know if I can say she's my friend, but has worked with Nike to help them create new bras. And just seeing like, obviously, because we're friends on Instagram, I can see the behind the scenes and stuff. And the journey I've seen that they've gone on developing the bras and the sports bras with her to having her in the campaigns to having her like bringing other because then I'm seeing people that I know that she works with in those campaigns. It's like, it's not just the end aspect. You can't just come out and say, okay, and if you're a marketer as well, and someone said, hey, we need to start advertising for body inclusivity and advertising to this market, and you can look back at the products and see it doesn't fit that market, call them out, call out the companies be like, actually, we're not just gonna do this for the sake of doing it. They take that step, and it's just, it's inauthentic. Like you said, when you're just doing it for the sake of doing it.
Serena Gainda 15:26
Exactly and you then you lose customers, you lose their trust, you lose their loyalty.
Joyann Boyce 15:33
What, what, let's say three tips would you give to a brand or organisation who's looking to step into that body positivity body inclusivity, within their marketing,
Serena Gainda 15:44
So to actually think beyond just race and size, so, you know, and definitely, as you say, to be a bit more intersectional, but also to remember that there are disabled bodies, too, that are, you know, trans bodies, that is a surprising lack of representation kind of across the board with when it comes to bodies that are not thin, or white. So it's just, yeah, consider what you know, what bodies exist and actually include them not just go for say, hey, let's include a person with darker skin. And that's it or just only have dark skin people, it's really about thinking about your full audience. And yeah, including them and thinking about what different bodies actually include.
Joyann Boyce 16:39
And that's such a good point because a lot of body positivity focuses on size, but that's also representation for disabled community. I am speaking going back to America's Next Top Model, I remember when they had the model with vitiligo, vitiligo, can't pronounce that properly. I'm trying to remember her name as well as gone completely from my brain. But that was so revolutionary in an era where she was still thin, still stick skinny. But because she had the skin disability or skin difference, everyone's like, Oh, my God, she's so unique, but it was still holding other standards is like, Okay, let's see how else we can continue to include the disabled community in various different ways when it comes to body positivity, not just the pretty full figured woman.
Serena Gainda 17:30
Yeah, no, exactly, exactly. It's not that they have to tick every other box. And there's only one difference. And that works. Yeah.
Joyann Boyce 17:39
One of my favourite, there's a couple of resources, but there's a stock photography website called Body Liberation. And they provide stock photos of just different bodies, plus size, disabled, amputees, wheelchair users, just variety and I'm starting to see their content be incorporated into the largest stock photo platforms. But I think that's a good tip for smaller marketer. If you're using stock photos and you're not seeing differences in your generic sites, there's sites out there that have it. I also think another tip would probably be anyone working with influencers.
Joyann Boyce 18:17
The one thing I can say about influencers who are, again, who use this whole the average or whatever, but body positive, they have wide audiences, their audiences tend to trust them. So I'm speaking from experience on this and I do pull from my experience in my marketing content as well. But as someone who's six foot four, I will trust an influencer with 100 followers, who's six foot four versus an influencer, who's five foot 7 with a million, I will buy whatever that 100 followers says I have a lot more brand loyalty to them because they are closer to my actual lived experience than this person with mass following. Um, not saying that people from marginalised backgrounds tend to have smaller followings, but I'm just trying to give an example of when you're working with influencers who are a lot more practically relatable.
Joyann Boyce 19:11
Yeah, I think practically relatable is the best way I can describe it because there's relatable in personality, but relatable in lifestyle. And I feel like a lot of this is a whole nother tangent, but sometimes influencers could go past that relatability when they get wealthy.
Serena Gainda 19:26
Yeah.
Joyann Boyce 19:28
They're no longer shopping in the same places their audiences are shopping, which is fine and everyone deserves everything. But a practical relatable illness is a huge selling point for a lot of people. I, is there any so you mentioned Aerie, what airy plan said wrong? What do they sell and tell me one thing you like about them and then I'll talk about Yitty and we can we can wrap it up from there.
Serena Gainda 19:52
Yep, so Aerie sell lingerie. And what I like about them is of course that they're showing lingerie on normal women, women that, you know, I can look at and say, hey, you know, she looks like me. And if it looks good on her, you know, it probably look good to me. It's nice to see that and to think that the products that they're selling, you know, are for, for me and for everyone. So, yeah, it's, um, it's making it look achievable as well as someone that looks like you, or has a body like yours and they're looking good in the lingerie. I mean, it's the lingerie that's good, you're gonna buy it. It's yeah, wholly achievable.
Joyann Boyce 20:34
It is nothing like seeing someone and like, oh, that person that sent me I could look like that. And making that equation versus oh, they're so, I need to be this way in order to look that good. It's like, No, you look good. They look good, everyone. That's good. I love it. And then the brand I want to shout out is Yitty by Lizzo, which is she's doing shapewear and like fitness wear and stuff like that. I like it for various reasons.
Joyann Boyce 21:01
Obviously, there's going to be some celebrity aspect to why it's doing well. But I think outside of the celebrity aspect outside of the attachment to Lizzo. I think a brand taking this positioning that shapewear should be comfortable is, like spandex and Spanx and all of those have been around for so long. But that shaper should be comfortable and help you shape your body not constrict your body is revolution and the the content you can create around that. Because then you're not focusing a lot of shapewear marketing content focuses on making them look thinner, and sucking them in and this was like, no, this is your body, your body is beautiful, less, you know, put you in some shape where that will just emphasise the beauty you already have. So that's what I love about Yitty. And it's also a cool name.
Joyann Boyce 21:48
Also from the jump, they're not shy to use models that actually were their staff. No, it doesn't look like things are photoshopped again, I am not a photographer, so I cannot tell. And I enjoy on the celebrity aspect and the fact that it's attached to Lizzo, I enjoyed her commitment to making sure if someone talks about Yitty, especially on TikTok, Lizzo is clapping for them, Lizzo is celebrating them, Lizzo is saying encouragement things about them. Whereas I feel like shapewear brands in the past. Whenever endorsed by celebrities, you're always made to feel like you need to do more. But a certain brand comes to mind where it feels like even if you bought their products, you still weren't as good as them. It's like no you don't want your customers feeling like that. You want them to be part of community. That's how you're going to get longevity.
Joyann Boyce 22:39
Anywho and on that note, thank you for tuning in to the Marketing Made Inclusive podcast. You've been listening to myself Joyann Boyce and Serena. And we've been talking about all things body positivity. Feel free to check out our blog on arimacompany.com and tune in soon for another episode.
